Crash Landing; The Passionate Eye-CBC

[Zarathustra]

The opinion that many PTSD claims are lies seems quite widespread. I've seen it in other threads too. Where does it come from ? Is the level of integrity / honesty in the CF rather low ? Too many people joining for the wrong reasons (money/benefits) ? Is it because you know people who made suspicious PTSD claims ? Or is it from personal exposure to similar events without getting PTSD ? Or all of the above ?

I'm not saying you are right or wrong, I'm just very surprised. Having no military or medical experience, I can't really choose my side, so I'm asking questions.

 

[3rd Horseman]

Let Me try and comment,

Being a soldier with PTSD.

  You have the soldier who is just not doing well and wants to get out, after awhile and some thinking they realise they will have nothing once they are out no pension no job. They are not having a good time and as the pressue mounts in there very dissatisfied job they get posted to a shit hole mainly because they are not having a good time. They fake sick and claim PTSD and now no posting lots of PTSD money and they get to get out with a pension.
From personal observation I know the following, I will let you be the judge on wether it is fake or not:

Scenario 1  - cook is on a ship in the gulf happening (happening since it was not a war for Cdn) some 5,000km from the war and so far back in the gulf an Iraqi sea gull could not shit on his head while smoking on the back deck.  Released for PTSD full pension

Scenario 2 - cook miles from the front hears two soldiers talking about the action they just had on the front line some day before. Released for PTSD full pension.

Scenario 3 - Social worker doing stress debriefing for Swiss air recovery soldiers gets PTSD from hearing the stories.

Scenario 4  - Social worker doing stress debriefing for Kosavar refugees at a Canadian base gets PTSD from hearing the stories during the debriefing.

Scenario 5  - Oh I have many many more shall I go on?

Due to the above examples soldiers who really have gotten PTSD are to scared of the reticule to come forward.

 

[GO!!!]

Due to the above examples soldiers who really have gotten PTSD are to scared of the ridicule to come forward.

That is exactly it. The guys who sit in their rooms in the shacks hating themselves and drinking every night, are loathe to be grouped with the sorry individuals in this documentary.

They have too much pride to be paid to ask for help, but the stigma of being categorised by their peers is what passes for "weak" I feel is the ultimate disincentive. In my experience, the people who are off work on PTSD pensions were not the best soldiers in the first place, and many times, we are better off without them.

There also seems to be a disproportionately high number of CSS types claiming stress, especially from tours like op apollo, where they never once set foot outside of the camp. This is justified by the blanket "stress affects everyone differently" statement. The guys at the pointy end who were shooting people, getting blown up by land mines, digging up bodies and picking up pieces of them are not getting PTSD (for the most part). They are the cooks, clerks and mechanics who are on TV saying what a rough go they had, when in reality, they worked 9 to 5 and slept in a tent for six months.

It is this stigma of going to a support group filled with overweight, older, largely female PTSD "sufferers" (my experience) that I think supresses many of the legitimate claims. A soldier who pushed himself physically and mentally for several years, in some cases has seen action, has perhaps watched his friends die (I'm making generic comments here, not personal experiences) has little in common with the clerk who could'nt sleep a couple of times because her Warrant yelled at her in the desert once. So he doe'snt go - because he does'nt see himself in any of the other people there, they are not privy to many of the more extreme events that we can encounter. Perhaps this is simply a manifestation of arrogance, but nevertheless, it happens.

In conclusion, I feel that those who are proud to be in the army, and proud of the job that they do are most likely to return to work, with or without PTSD, whether they seek help or not. I believe that the majority of people who leave the military on stress pensions are below average troops, simply looking for an easy and lucrative way out, and that this keeps many legitimate claims in the shadows, for fear of the association.

 

[291er]

Right on lads......I think this was something that had to be addressed.....the documentary left me with a bad taste in my mouth, especially as I am just about to deploy on my first tour.  Cudos to 3rd Horseman and GO! for clearing some of this stuff up.  I also think that there are a lot of legitimate cases of PTSD still lurking in the military, and echo the comments that most of these people try to soldier on and get on with the job at hand.  Is this the best thing?  Probably not, hopefully someday there will be a system in place to better recognize PTSD and treat it, and also find some way of "weeding out" the freeloaders.

 

[S McKee]

That is exactly it. The guys who sit in their rooms in the shacks hating themselves and drinking every night, are loathe to be grouped with the sorry individuals in this documentary.

They have too much pride to be paid to ask for help, but the stigma of being categorised by their peers is what passes for "weak" I feel is the ultimate disincentive. In my experience, the people who are off work on PTSD pensions were not the best soldiers in the first place, and many times, we are better off without them.

There also seems to be a disproportionately high number of CSS types claiming stress, especially from tours like op apollo, where they never once set foot outside of the camp. This is justified by the blanket "stress affects everyone differently" statement. The guys at the pointy end who were shooting people, getting blown up by land mines, digging up bodies and picking up pieces of them are not getting PTSD (for the most part). They are the cooks, clerks and mechanics who are on TV saying what a rough go they had, when in reality, they worked 9 to 5 and slept in a tent for six months.

It is this stigma of going to a support group filled with overweight, older, largely female PTSD "sufferers" (my experience) that I think supresses many of the legitimate claims. A soldier who pushed himself physically and mentally for several years, in some cases has seen action, has perhaps watched his friends die (I'm making generic comments here, not personal experiences) has little in common with the clerk who could'nt sleep a couple of times because her Warrant yelled at her in the desert once. So he doe'snt go - because he does'nt see himself in any of the other people there, they are not privy to many of the more extreme events that we can encounter. Perhaps this is simply a manifestation of arrogance, but nevertheless, it happens.

In conclusion, I feel that those who are proud to be in the army, and proud of the job that they do are most likely to return to work, with or without PTSD, whether they seek help or not. I believe that the majority of people who leave the military on stress pensions are below average troops, simply looking for an easy and lucrative way out, and that this keeps many legitimate claims in the shadows, for fear of the association.

Do you have any stats to support your claim that a "disproportionately high number of CSS types [are] claiming stress?

While I found the documentary interesting, there were parts that I found a little over the top. The female's stress was caused by working with males in a confined environment, after she alleged she was the victim of sexual assault. At the end of the program it indicated that she is not getting a VAC pension. While I can't comment about the validity of the "Gulf War Syndrome" (I thought you had to be on the ground to get it, not in a climate controlled ship) this individual was the victim of a crime, and while she she may suffer from PTSD it is hardly the CF's fault.

One has to be careful of making generalized comments like "PTSD sufferers are below average troops."  Do you think your "above average" troops/ subordinates who have legitimate PTSD concerns would come forward after hearing you say that?

 

[The Gues-|-]

It's unfortunate for those that suffer from PTSD.  However, the females claim of suffering from gulf war syndrom.... I didn't understand.  Apparently she was sexually assaulted on sea therefor suffering from gulf war syndrom? :dontpanic:

 

[GO!!!]

Do you have any stats to support your claim that a "disproportionately high number of CSS types [are] claiming stress?

While I found the documentary interesting, there were parts that I found a little over the top. The female's stress was caused by working with males in a confined environment, after she alleged she was the victim of sexual assault. At the end of the program it indicated that she is not getting a VAC pension. While I can't comment about the validity of the "Gulf War Syndrome" (I thought you had to be on the ground to get it, not in a climate controlled ship) this individual was the victim of a crime, and while she she may suffer from PTSD it is hardly the CF's fault.

One has to be careful of making generalized comments like "PTSD sufferers are below average troops."   Do you think your "above average" troops/ subordinates who have legitimate PTSD concerns would come forward after hearing you say that?

I stated that the people who don't come back to work, not those who suffer are the problem. The guys who have a problem seek help through their unit Padre, the completely confidential Member Assistance Program and occasionally their MIR/UMS. The people who are looking for an easy paycheque never seem to return. While I realise that my statements can be interpreted as cyclical and kind of a self - fulfilling prophecy, the statement above, IMO, is already the general consensus, I just happen to agree with it.

I have read (and I'm trying to find again) the paper that stated that a disproportionately high number of CSS troops are suffering from PTSD and have been placed on leave. The justification for this that was given was that the CSS trades often lacked both the esprit de corps of a cbt arms unit, and the "presitge" of having been an active participant in cbt operations. Compunding this, they were often piecemealed back to their parent units and sub units with no other troops with similar experiences with which to talk. 

 

[steve-o]

Maybe a solution to this would be for the bloody Canadian military to actually recognize the disorder as something legitimate! Perhaps the reasons that most of the posts here describe those suffering from PTSD as nothing more than whiners, and "seeking a free ticket out" is directly related to the inability of the military to accept PTSD as a disorder; not surprisingly, the Americans have admitted that it is a disorder and the taboo has been lifted. You won't hear PTSD sufferers being denigrated to such a degree as they are in Canada. The documentary mentioned that sick soldiers are somehow seen as 'weak', and in my limited time as a soldier I have seen this phenomena close hand. One friend continued to the end of his infantry course after the ruck march with the soles of his feet peeled off from massive blistering. He ended up on an IV and almost lost one foot. This brainless, troglodyte mentality was a huge turn-off.

4. The ugly secret that no one seems to want to talk about is the people who take advantage of the system when they are perhaps not as affected as they claim to be. Why are we so reluctant to bring this up? I'm sorry, but several of the (PTSD creating) situations that the people involved in that documentary made me laugh.

GO!!!, I find not only is your insensitive attitude appalling, but unfortunately commonplace, so I guess I can't act surprised that you sound exactly like everyone else in the military. I just can't help but wonder why it is that you find this situation funny, but you don't seem to mind that your country treats its soldiers like this, and doesn't even have the decency to address the sickness. Now that is funny!  Do you find it humorous that we still give our troops mefloquine, whose drug-induced side effects/adverse reactions present an increase in family pre- and re-deployment anxieties? Three soldiers from Fort Bragg who murdered their wives after tours in Afghanistan were on this very drug, and yet we continue here in Canada to ignore the facts. I find that funny!
I am sure there individuals who do take advantage of this illness to suit there own agenda, but I would have to think that they must be few, and the military would wean them out somehow anyways. But to paint everyone with the same brush is wrong, and against everything the military is about â “ sticking to your convictions and standing by your fellow man.

 

[3rd Horseman]

Steve -o

  Ease up fella.....many of us who posted harsh comments are current suffers of PTSD, this should lend some credibility to the comments.

 

[291er]

Steve-o

I think you might want to back up your comments about everyone in the military an appalling nae insensitive attitude.  I'm not sure how you justify these remarks, giving that you're not a current military member.  Your profile states that you're a former Pte, no offence to Ptes, and I'm by no means looking down on them or you from my staggering rank of Cpl, but that in itself implies that you had less than 4 yrs served, I therefore find it rather unlikely that you have deployed in an operational capacity.
This is by no means personal, and you're certainly entitled to post your opinion on here, however, I hardly feel that you can vouch for the attitude of "everyone else in the military".  

 

[Marauder]

Three soldiers from Fort Bragg who murdered their wives after tours in Afghanistan were on this very drug, and yet we continue here in Canada to ignore the facts. I find that funny!

The funny thing is that those guys were just three of *thousands* upon *thousands* of returning troops who didn't murder their spouse/fiancee/girlfriend and then take the cowards way out after returning from AStan and taking the mefloquine. There is a possibility that those three just had fucked up relationships that went south when the deployed, and had a bad dynamic that took a horrible turn when they returned. Or maybe those three were just assholes from the get go and did a really retarded thing. I don't think anyone is ignoring the facts; I thin maybe the powers that be may have (for once) taken an issue (three "Mefloquine-induced murder/suicides") and for once put it into perspective.

 

[Acorn]

Do you find it humorous that we still give our troops mefloquine, whose drug-induced side effects/adverse reactions present an increase in family pre- and re-deployment anxieties?

Boy, you've sure bought into the propaganda. Maybe malaria is a better choice? Anyone consider that the US soldiers who went off and killed their wives and themselves might have been suffering from something other than Mefloquine problems?

I'm getting sick of idiots. Idiots who MUST seek a single, easy to identify, preferably inflicted by an insensitive government, cause for whatever the condition might be. GWS is caused by DU which everyone withing 5,000 km of Kuwait City was exposed to. Agent Orange is causing cancer in anyone who happened to pass through Gagetown between 1960 and 1990. Mef causes GWS, cancer, madness etc. (caveat: the AO issue jury is still out, and though I have no question in my mind that some people have been effected by it, I get annoyed at the numbers of bandwagon climbers).

But no one ever thinks stress could be the cause of any of this stuff. Nooo, stress reaction is a sign of weakness. Or, unless you saw a whole villiage of babies massacred, you have no claim to be suffering from stress. I find it odd that ulcers (a bowel ailment) is associated with stress, yet more serious bowel ailments must be caused by a cocktail of DU, AO and the drugs we all get before deployment - nahh. Couldn't be stress-related. Hair loss, memory loss, psychotic breaks, infections - all have been medically associated with stress, except for soldiers. No, it has to be the toxic waste dump we built our camp in. To admit that stress caused it would be admitting weakness.

And finally, I use "stress" in it's most general way. One may never see a drop of human blood on a six month tour, but working 16 hour days, 7 days a week, can't be a good thing (yeah, like those command driven "Sunday routine" days really apply to everyone). Add a number of other typical stressors, and even the possibility of a whiff of cordite, and we really shouldn't be surprised that even the CSS folks might get it from time to time.

But it's easier to blame it on the insensitive tool that is the CF chief medical officer not recognizing that my condition is the result of exposure to toxic amounts of Bovine Excrement generated by higher HQs.

 

[armyvern]

I have read (and I'm trying to find again) the paper that stated that a disproportionately high number of CSS troops are suffering from PTSD and have been placed on leave. The justification for this that was given was that the CSS trades often lacked both the esprit de corps of a cbt arms unit, and the "presitge" of having been an active participant in cbt operations. Compunding this, they were often piecemealed back to their parent units and sub units with no other troops with similar experiences with which to talk.  

GO!!!

I just ask you to consider this....

Ever stop to think that the physically or mentally injured pointy end troops who can longer longer remain at the pointy end due to the nature of their injuries, more often than not end up being re-mustered into CSS roles? Come on now, unfit hard Army trades but still fit for service. Where do they end up at? Ever stop to think that this may be a part of the reason for the skewed/funny looking stats on the CSS side of the house?
Let's pull up the CSS stats for PTSD and see how many of those pers are re-musters in who suffered their initial injury while employed at the pointy end....I'm sure it would be quite revealing!! 

As for us never getting outside the gates of Camp, keep thinking that way. I know where I've been and what I've witnessed/experienced. As for my work-day, wow...I have yet to have such a nice workday on any of my deployments. I need you for a Boss, please.  ;D

 

[GO!!!]

Maybe a solution to this would be for the bloody Canadian military to actually recognize the disorder as something legitimate! Perhaps the reasons that most of the posts here describe those suffering from PTSD as nothing more than whiners, and "seeking a free ticket out" is directly related to the inability of the military to accept PTSD as a disorder; not surprisingly, the Americans have admitted that it is a disorder and the taboo has been lifted.

I assume you must have a vast amount of operational experience in both the Canadian and US militaries to make statements like "a taboo has been lifted" Or do you just read the paper and believe whatever FOX news tells you?

You won't hear PTSD sufferers being denigrated to such a degree as they are in Canada. The documentary mentioned that sick soldiers are somehow seen as 'weak', and in my limited time as a soldier I have seen this phenomena close hand. One friend continued to the end of his infantry course after the ruck march with the soles of his feet peeled off from massive blistering. He ended up on an IV and almost lost one foot. This brainless, troglodyte mentality was a huge turn-off.

Your pansy attitude towards physical discomfort is a turn off for me. I (and thousands of other soldiers) have suffered through forced marches, shivered on the C6 and nearly fallen asleep at the wheel doing our jobs because we were willing to put a cause on a higher plane than our own physical pain. The people that "shut 'er down" as the saying goes, could'nt pull it off and got on the truck? they failed. They failed themselves and the course, and us, their peers. It's called teamwork.

GO!!!, I find not only is your insensitive attitude appalling, but unfortunately commonplace, so I guess I can't act surprised that you sound exactly like everyone else in the military. I just can't help but wonder why it is that you find this situation funny, but you don't seem to mind that your country treats its soldiers like this, and doesn't even have the decency to address the sickness. Now that is funny!   Do you find it humorous that we still give our troops mefloquine, whose drug-induced side effects/adverse reactions present an increase in family pre- and re-deployment anxieties? Three soldiers from Fort Bragg who murdered their wives after tours in Afghanistan were on this very drug, and yet we continue here in Canada to ignore the facts. I find that funny!

Never have I said that PTSD is funny. Review my posts. I find uneducated bandwagon jumpers like you funny - not job related stress.
I've taken mefloquine for 6 months straight, as have 120 000 US soldiers, and a few thousand Canadians. But when 3 guys come home and do something ****ed up, it must be the drugs. I suppose malaria would be better - IT'S LETHAL YOU TWIT!!!

I am sure there individuals who do take advantage of this illness to suit there own agenda, but I would have to think that they must be few, and the military would wean them out somehow anyways. But to paint everyone with the same brush is wrong, and against everything the military is about â “ sticking to your convictions and standing by your fellow man.

I am sticking to my convictions. And quite obviously, you don't think, or you would have read my posts a little more carefully before shooting your mouth off.

I clearly stated, several times, that all troops will be stressed, and some will get PTSD, but that the majority will return to work - or could if they wanted to. But they don't. And no one says a god - damn thing about it. But you know "what this country does to it's soldiers" - you read the paper. Spare us your sycophantic ranting.

There is a saying, it is not what happens to you, it is how you react to it. You get hurt, you get help from a doctor or therapist, you rehabilitate, you get back on the horse. You don't lie there and never get up because someone will feed you on the ground.

 

[3rd Horseman]

Armyvern,
        Very good point I would be interested in that result you pos a very good question. As a side note while I toured during the slow times when little to no shooting occured everone could move about, but when the sh*t hit the fan no CSS went beyond the gate and any Combat arms not specific to a trench or OP also remained in camp.


GO...
  "There is a saying, it is not what happens to you, it is how you react to it. You get hurt, you get help from a doctor or therapist, you rehabilitate, you get back on the horse. You don't lie there and never get up because someone will feed you on the ground."
  Im still drueling a little but Im on the horse just a different ranch, you have a very good point.

 

[steve-o]

I assume you must have a vast amount of operational experience in both the Canadian and US militaries to make statements like "a taboo has been lifted" Or do you just read the paper and believe whatever FOX news tells you?

Your pansy attitude towards physical discomfort is a turn off for me. I (and thousands of other soldiers) have suffered through forced marches, shivered on the C6 and nearly fallen asleep at the wheel doing our jobs because we were willing to put a cause on a higher plane than our own physical pain. The people that "shut 'er down" as the saying goes, could'nt pull it off and got on the truck? they failed. They failed themselves and the course, and us, their peers. It's called teamwork.

Pansy attitude? Ok, I guess I hit a nerve? Sounds to me like the mefloquine has made you a little squirrely! Sorry if I didn't follow your threads closely enough, I did jump on it without reading it cclosely enough, and for that I am embarassed. But your high-school putdowns about my 'pansy' attitude to physical discomfort are even more off the mark than I was with you. Do you really think almost losing a foot because one didn't disclose his 'discomfort' just physical discomfort? I don't think comments about 'band-wagon jumping', lack of experience, regurgitating FOX news, and accusing people of having a lack of education is really necessary though, do you? Seems petty coming from someone who is considered a senior member at army.ca.

 

[enfield]

One friend continued to the end of his infantry course after the ruck march with the soles of his feet peeled off from massive blistering. He ended up on an IV and almost lost one foot. This brainless, troglodyte mentality was a huge turn-off.

If you somehow screw up your own feet so badly from a ruck march that you might lose a foot, you are an idiot and should be failed immediatley. Maybe your tough for carrying on - but you're dumb and a drain on the team.

 

[Infanteer]

Ask a German in the Ukraine in 1943 what the penalty for failing the 130km ruckmarch was.  Damn partisans....

 

[3rd Horseman]

Or the US march to Batoon

Or the US march from the Yalo river at the Resoviour North Korea

Or the French from Russia

I do believe we have wondered

 

[291er]

I often wonder why some non-military people or quitters bother posting on here?  I guess some people have to experience it to realize the significance.  As far as the ruck marchs....it's been a long time since my reserve infantry days and I just did two complete BFT's in two weeks....blisters and all.....I think if someone had blisters bad enough to the point that his foot was nearly amputated, there must have been something SEVERELY wrong with his boots or feet beforehand.....realistically most people get blisters on it, but we soldier on.

Getting back to the topic though....my position is this Steve-o.....you've obviously never experienced PTSD and you're speaking from very limited military experience.....we have real PTSD sufferers commenting on here and you're trying to ridicule them....you may well be educated, and read vast amounts on PTSD, but what gives you the right to judge these people.....As far as this brainless troglodyte mentality......I guess you really would'nt get it, because obviously you did'nt have what it takes to be a soldier.  It's not about being brainless at all, and frankly, I'm insulted that you make such an inflammatory remark, it's mind over matter and a devotion to wanting to wear this uniform and defend the country.  Mindless, no, selfless, yes.

I think it would be best if you simply left this conversation, because you're not making a valid contribution, and just really taking our focus of the topic at hand.......if you have issues with the military or what have you, kindly take it elsewhere so we can carry on with this topic...I'm sure I speak for most of the members when I say that we're tired of your attempt at a virtual pissing contest.