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Daily wear - Work Dress vs Operational dress [Split from Sleeves up]

OldSolduer

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PPCLI Guy said:
So here are some Roman Legionnaires on Hadrian's Wall..........bitching about the sleeve policy.  Nothing new here folks.

One of them might be me.  ;)
 

vonGarvin

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PPCLI Guy said:
So here are some Roman Legionnaires on Hadrian's Wall..........bitching about the sleeve policy.  Nothing new here folks.
"Why do we always lead off with the left when we march?  Why not the right?  I tell you, there's something sinister about leading off with the left foot..."
 

dimsum

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gcclarke said:
I would assume that most people who are tired of dealing with uniforms would probably get out and not get another job that has a uniform. "Business Casual" is rather prevalent and extremely flexible.

At risk of starting a tangent, my civie friends would argue otherwise.  Of course it depends on what you're doing, but it's basically some form of button-down shirt with/without tie, maybe polo, and slacks or at worst, nice jeans and shoes in an office environment.  This sounds pretty petty, but they also pay for it and don't have any subsidies (or straight up free clothes). 

This comes up more than I'd care to admit with them, but they actually envy us because we don't have to think about what we have to wear in the morning, whether it looks too much like what was worn already this week (it's a thing apparently), what shoes match what pants/belt/shirt, etc.

I agree with you in the big picture, but if you don't like something that much, send it through the Dress Committee and try to change it.
 

brihard

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Technoviking said:
"Why do we always lead off with the left when we march?  Why not the right?  I tell you, there's something sinister about leading off with the left foot..."

This reply didn’t get nearly the love it deserved. Well played, sir. Well played.
 

Navy_Pete

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Dimsum said:
At risk of starting a tangent, my civie friends would argue otherwise.  Of course it depends on what you're doing, but it's basically some form of button-down shirt with/without tie, maybe polo, and slacks or at worst, nice jeans and shoes in an office environment.  This sounds pretty petty, but they also pay for it and don't have any subsidies (or straight up free clothes). 

This comes up more than I'd care to admit with them, but they actually envy us because we don't have to think about what we have to wear in the morning, whether it looks too much like what was worn already this week (it's a thing apparently), what shoes match what pants/belt/shirt, etc.

Can confirm from jobs pre-mob; lot more thought is required in what to get dressed in. Also can get pretty expensive; figure probably spent about $1k on a few pairs of pants, a selection of shirts, jacket, shoes and a few belts, and probably another $100+ every quarter or so as things wore out.  That was 20 years ago, so probably more now. And that was low level, so wasn't wearing anything fancy.  Know people that budget $5k (or more) per year for daily office wear, and can be much higher if you aren't wearing off the rack suits.

I regularly send in comments to logistik about the tailoring when they change the sizes, but will never complain about getting a free uniform. Not a big fashion maven, so really appreciate being able to only have to figure out what the weather is doing to see if I want to wear a short or long sleeve shirt when I'm pulling on the DEUs.

Love the Roman off shoot but can't figure out anything clever. They probably also complained about the hobnail sandals and the lack of proper cold weather gear too!
 

daftandbarmy

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Navy_Pete said:
Can confirm from jobs pre-mob; lot more thought is required in what to get dressed in. Also can get pretty expensive; figure probably spent about $1k on a few pairs of pants, a selection of shirts, jacket, shoes and a few belts, and probably another $100+ every quarter or so as things wore out.  That was 20 years ago, so probably more now. And that was low level, so wasn't wearing anything fancy.  Know people that budget $5k (or more) per year for daily office wear, and can be much higher if you aren't wearing off the rack suits.

I've put my faith in Moore's, recently. I got four suits for under $1000, and they even took my old suits as part trade. The new fabrics are excellent, kind of like a wool/spandex blend, and they do a great tailoring job.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Throwaway987 said:
My own frustrations and concerns come from seeing an archaic institution failing to adapt to a changing generational mindset.

How much adapting is "too much"?  I think the CAF is adapting, based on 'where it was 30 years ago' when I joined to today.  I'd rather see the focus on better career management practices, a personnel evaluation system that rewards people more for the core job skills than secondary duties and community service, the ability for people to move from Reg to Res, Res to Reg quicker, etc.  Those are the issues I'd rather see our senior leadership bring to the CDS, AFC, etc.  Sleeves?  That topic won't really improve my QOL any. 

We risk losing the future best and brightest, the ones who have the capability to leave, and being left with an increasing proportion of people who have no where better to go.

I've heard this argument before about the 'best and brightest'.  I know a few folks in my trade that had bright futures that left;  it was not over buttons and bows, it was more about issues like I mentioned in the line above. 

I recall from a management seminar that we should identify problems as systemic issues versus individual issues. I view the sleeve issues as a systemic one as it causes many reasonable individuals to run into the same issue time and time again. Should all these senior leaders all report to the release section as you suggest? Or could they be reasonable people trying to work with an unreasonable policy?

I hope most people in leadership positions will pass on their concerns to their superiors, and then carry on with the job.  Is this sleeves down issue really THAT big of a deal for Army folks?  Because it's been that way in the RCAF for...well as long as I've been in flying jammies.  Also from CADO, Vol 1, 1-006 Operational Dress:

Flying Clothing/Coveralls:  Sleeves shall neither be rolled nor pushed up.

I disagree with your assessment on the slippery slope theory. I do not believe that questioning an impractical order means that you are automatically blinded to all sense of reason and judgement with more practical orders. Can it be possible that we’re talking about two different groups of people? Can people who lack attention to detail simply lack attention to detail and need to be rehabilitated or removed from the CAF?

Slippery slope - let's say on a LRP crew, 2 of the Officers have their sleeves pushed up in the crew room.  Cpl Bloggins arrives on Sqn, sees that and says "hey, cool we can do that".  Goes walking around like that, and the SCWO, or WCWO etc see him/her.  What defence does the Cpl have?  "Well, the Officers are doing it". 

Lead by example. 

The Sqn's on the operational side of our Wing requested permission to wear ballcaps between hangers/buildings to the WCOMD.  It was reviewed and denied.  A few weeks later, there I am in Stadacona...sailors wearing ballcaps in NCDs all over the place.  I don't have to like it, it doesn't have to make sense to me...and I wore my wedge around.  I wear my wedge from my car to the
breezeway, and then put my ball hat on. 

Dimsum said:
if you don't like something that much, send it through the Dress Committee and try to change it.

This.

I've had more than my fair share to say in this thread, I'll try to bow out at this point.  I'm curious, though, if the Army dress reg's allow for 'unit level' policy like the RCAF for hot Wx ops.
 

PPCLI Guy

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Do we have a retention problem?  As far as I know, our attrition rate is within the desired range of 6.5 to 10%, and likely not far off the long term statistical norms of approximately 7%.  If anyone has more recent figures that would be helpful.
 

SupersonicMax

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PPCLI Guy said:
Do we have a retention problem?  As far as I know, our attrition rate is within the desired range of 6.5 to 10%, and likely not far off the long term statistical norms of approximately 7%.  If anyone has more recent figures that would be helpful.

Some trades are harder hit than others...
 

dapaterson

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Some problems lie with organizations failing to structure their training systems to meet that attrition rate, or to account for growth in occupations.

HR planning needs to be an integral part of force development, and not an afterthought that, magically, hundreds of trained and experienced sailors, soldiers and aviators will appear to man the new equipment.
 

Eye In The Sky

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dapaterson said:
Some problems lie with organizations failing to structure their training systems to meet that attrition rate, or to account for growth in occupations.

HR planning needs to be an integral part of force development, and not an afterthought that, magically, hundreds of trained and experienced sailors, soldiers and aviators will appear to man   person the new equipment.

 

daftandbarmy

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From a news article last year:

"At the end of fiscal 2018, the forces were losing about 4.1 per cent of its members — both regular and reserve — a year. In fiscal 2017, the attrition rate spiked to 7.9 per cent. That spike, according to the briefing note prepared for Sajjan was a result of the clearing of a backlog of medical releases." https://globalnews.ca/news/4450927/canada-armed-forces-diversity-goals-digital-recruiting/

What the CAF doesn't have, to my knowledge, is an 'employee engagement survey' that gives quantifiable data on employee satisfaction levels related to various workplace factors. As a result, like in this thread and others, alot of what gets shared around is individually generated impressions.

In God we trust, all other bring data... and that data should be used to drive enterprise wide HR and other policy development. We can't do that yet for things like 'rolled up sleeves' policies etc. IIRC

Employee Surveys Are Still One of the Best Ways to Measure Engagement

https://hbr.org/2018/03/employee-surveys-are-still-one-of-the-best-ways-to-measure-engagement
 

PPCLI Guy

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daftandbarmy said:
From a news article last year:

"At the end of fiscal 2018, the forces were losing about 4.1 per cent of its members — both regular and reserve — a year. In fiscal 2017, the attrition rate spiked to 7.9 per cent. That spike, according to the briefing note prepared for Sajjan was a result of the clearing of a backlog of medical releases." https://globalnews.ca/news/4450927/canada-armed-forces-diversity-goals-digital-recruiting/

Those are actually low numbers, which is not necessarily the same as good numbers.  We need a certain amount of turnover.  Our system is designed around it.

What the CAF doesn't have, to my knowledge, is an 'employee engagement survey' that gives quantifiable data on employee satisfaction levels related to various workplace factors. As a result, like in this thread and others, alot of what gets shared around is individually generated impressions.

In God we trust, all other bring data... and that data should be used to drive enterprise wide HR and other policy development. We can't do that yet for things like 'rolled up sleeves' policies etc. IIRC

Employee Surveys Are Still One of the Best Ways to Measure Engagement

https://hbr.org/2018/03/employee-surveys-are-still-one-of-the-best-ways-to-measure-engagement

We have plenty of surveys.  All CAF members have been invited on numerous occasions to take part in them.  Automatically deleting all messages from higher or "CAF Spam" is a fine way to disenfranchise oneself, and to skew the data. 
 

BDTyre

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daftandbarmy said:
What the CAF doesn't have, to my knowledge, is an 'employee engagement survey' that gives quantifiable data on employee satisfaction levels related to various workplace factors. As a result, like in this thread and others, alot of what gets shared around is individually

Employee Surveys Are Still One of the Best Ways to Measure Engagement

https://hbr.org/2018/03/employee-surveys-are-still-one-of-the-best-ways-to-measure-engagement

To echo PPCLI Guy, we do have surveys...many of them. In the past...six or seven years I have done at least as many CAF surveys on various topics, including at least one (if not two) on job satisfaction, morale, engagement, future prospects, etc.
 

Navy_Pete

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daftandbarmy said:
I've put my faith in Moore's, recently. I got four suits for under $1000, and they even took my old suits as part trade. The new fabrics are excellent, kind of like a wool/spandex blend, and they do a great tailoring job.

No arguement here; got my last suit from Moores. I went from having nothing to having enough dress clothes to get through a week, but ended up getting more dress shirts.  Figured out pretty quick to stick with a few basic colours for the shirts, so didn't matter if I did laundry mid week and wore the same shirt twice. Also got a really good pair of comfortable shoes that I still have, but think those were probably the most expensive single item.

Now I have a bunch of ties, a few pairs of shoes and a couple of belts, so it's just replacing pants/shirts as they wear out.  That's pretty infrequent, but an unfortunate side effect of going to the gym more regularly over the last few years is that my tailored civvie shirts are all tight around the chest and shoulders (after I went from skinny to less skinny). They normally fit pretty good off the rack, so typically just get them tapered for the waist. They've lasted years with the occasional wear (ie Fridays and the odd night out) so not a big deal.

Still, out of pocket zero dollars for my uniform replacements, so even a reasonable priced set of clothes costs more than the uniform. My only real complaint about the uniform is the sometimes weird dimensions, where I might get need to go up several sizes to have arms long enough on shirts (the NCDs were particularly bad), or have odd match ups like loose waist with baggy seat and tight thigh, which I can't really picture having skinnier legs than mine while also having a bigger waist/arse.  All fixable, but find it odd that I can normally get off the rack stuff that fits pretty good at any store, but look like a bag of milk expecting a flood in the same sizes of uniforms.
 

Good2Golf

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Brihard said:
This reply didn’t get nearly the love it deserved. Well played, sir. Well played.

I agree!  Well-played, TV! :nod:

And as a ‘lefty’ (physiologically speaking, of course) I take pride in personally identifying with the most fundamental of the principles of drill, that the sinister shall take precedence over the dexterous. ;)

Regards
G2G
 

Blackadder1916

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Good2Golf said:
I agree!  Well-played, TV! :nod:

And as a ‘lefty’ (physiologically speaking, of course) I take pride in personally identifying with the most fundamental of the principles of drill, that the sinister shall take precedence over the dexterous. ;)

Regards
G2G

Sir, I disagree.  The "sinister" does not take precedence over the "dexterous" in drill.  As we harken back to those legionaires discussing why they start off with the left foot, it must be acknowledged that they did so because their weapons were carried and operated by their right hands.  The left side was occupied by a static implement, the shield, which, while important in their tactical employment, was not the offensive capability.  It was all those "pointy sticks" being thrust forward (or thrown) by the right side that decided the battle.  Things didn't work as well if the thrusting and throwing started off on the right foot.

Fast forward to the pointy stick being on the end of a rifle.  The left foot forward was for balancing the body when presenting the rifle for firing or en garde for the bayonet.  It was the right hand that operated the weapon and the right foot that stabilized the body against recoil when firing or accepting the weight of an enemy when he ran into your bayonet.  Even today we can see the maintenance of that same principle in ceremonial when performing "examine arms" or "firing volleys".

While the training and employment of the CF in crowd control has been curtailed there may be a few who remember advancing in "step - check" with baton and shield during internal security BDF training. (See here at 25:35 for an example).  Moving forward with shield and baton may not have been that much removed from how a Roman century advanced on an unruly group in the provinces except the Romans probably didn't bang on their shields to intimidate.

It's all those lefties wanting to do their own thing that screws up tried and accepted routine.  Next thing is probably someone wanting to pilot a helicopter from the left seat.  Madness!

 

brihard

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daftandbarmy said:
I've put my faith in Moore's, recently. I got four suits for under $1000, and they even took my old suits as part trade. The new fabrics are excellent, kind of like a wool/spandex blend, and they do a great tailoring job.

Yup. I move to a plainclothes job in September, and have to stock up. I’ve got one of the Moore’s 50% off coupons you get after doing a suit rental (damned weddings); I’m gonna have to swing by soon and built a business casual wardrobe for the first time in my life. Fortunately I’ll get a clothing allowance to help with it, but it’s still a big chunk up front.
 

dapaterson

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Brihard said:
Yup. I move to a plainclothes job in September, and have to stock up. I’ve got one of the Moore’s 50% off coupons you get after doing a suit rental (damned weddings); I’m gonna have to swing by soon and built a business casual wardrobe for the first time in my life. Fortunately I’ll get a clothing allowance to help with it, but it’s still a big chunk up front.

Or, fly to Hong Kong or Singapore and buy bespoke suits there.  They'll keep your measurements on file, and you can order new ones by email in the future.
 
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