Danny Williams lowers the Canadian Flag

[Bograt]

That's an excellent question.

In the case of the last election, the tories lost one seat (close election) which was probably the result of backlash from provincial cuts. Gerry Byrne is a tobin clone that spent millions of dollars through ACOA, building warfs and clearing brush on the N. Peninsula. In my riding (Bill Matthews) the vote (a huge geographic riding) was spit between the NDP candidate and the tory( a very weak candidate). Efford is a smallwood liberal in a mostly Catholic and rural riding. I don't think he will ever win again.

 

[Bograt]

Although I have no actual proof (Bruce  ;D ) . . . I'd wager my 3 kids that the conservatives wouldn't be behaving any differently if they were in power . . .

I hope that wouldn't be the case. I would like to know the backroom discussion regarding this issue. Someone miscalculated in the PMO.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Yes, they did,....badly. What they were not expecting was a maritime [yes, I know ] premier to not crinch and slink away at the first sound of ......."equalization clawback."

 

[Cakear]

Does the term "clawback" sound kind of funny to anyone else?  Ranks up there with the words "phlegm" or "pus" . . . 

 

[227Tech]

Just a quick post (busy atm) The Canadian flags went back up as of 1300 10 Jan 05 as ordered by Premier Williams

CBC News

ST. JOHN'S, NFLD. - Canadian flags went up again at provincial government buildings in Newfoundland and Labrador Monday, after Premier Danny Williams ended his pointed protest of how offshore oil revenue talks are going.

The Maple Leaf was raised in front of Confederation Building in St. John's at 1 p.m. local time, ending a public-relations standoff.

Williams said he's made his point â “ that Ottawa has been treating his province badly â “ and gotten the attention of the rest of Canada.

    * FROM JAN. 7, 2005: Flag decision has come with a cost: Williams

"History has proven that the only way to get the attention of the federal government in Newfoundland and Labrador is to get the attention of Canadians," Williams said in a statement.

"This is exactly what we achieved when we removed the flags. Not everyone may have agreed with our decision, but we were able to focus the attention of the country on our issue."

The Maple Leaf was removed from provincial buildings and flagpoles on Dec. 23, after what the Newfoundland premier characterized as a frustrating meeting with federal Finance Minister Ralph Goodale.

Many other institutions in the province followed suit, some of them choosing instead to raise the pink, green and white pre-Confederation Newfoundland flag.

Some Newfoundlanders objected to Williams's tactic, though, and response from mainland Canadians was swift and critical.

 

[ex_coelis]

Good news.  Now, time for the PMO to break out the 'as-yet unused' 6-ft steel backbone picket, lower Mr. Martin onto it, and watch him do what's right.  The ball is in his court now.  It's an exciting time to be a Newfoundlander.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Glorified Ape,

I think you should take a long look at the last 11 pages of posts, you seem to have a completely uneducated point of view.   The only people looking like a buffoon are those with the same attitude you seem to portrait.

I'd like ask what you exactly mean by "beggars can't be chooser's" cause I've walked through the streets in St. John's and other parts of Newfoundland many times and not seen a beggar yet, can't say the same thing for cities in Ont though.

When you grow up and have an   real, educated opinion, come back...otherwise your just wasting our time with written diarrhea

Are you trying to tell me that only Ont has beggars????

Please have you been to other cities in this great country of ours.

Yes agreed all provinces have there dark spots, Alberta has Klein(that is a joke)  Ont has Dalton (that is not).  and then Quebec well there is not enough memory space for that one on a post. (again possible a joke)

  We all have an opinion and that we are entitled to... remember that thing called the CHARTER OF RIGHTS and FREEDOMS. 

But for a province to arbitrarily lower the Canadian flag because they are not getting what they want does seem alot like they went home and took there ball with them cause it was a game they did not want to play.

Yes all provinces should have a voice.  Yes they all should get a say.  But don't tell me that Newfoundland has not relied on the Feds to make ends meet for the last 10 to 20 years.  No, this is not a smash on Newfoundland.  Alberta did it in the 80's Ont did, Sask did and so on and so on.  But its like the kid who owed three bucks and found five not wanting to re pay his debts.

Yes we are a Federation as one so nicely pointed out and we rely on the provices to run their jurisdictions prudently and responsibly.  But they should have to answer to higher if things go wrong and repay thier debts when they go right.  You can't have it both ways and call it fair play.

This is not to say the Ottawa is not being stubborn and holding back some, i just feel that going home and telling your people that they are trying to embarrass you to return to the tables on issue you created is like getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar and blaming your mom for baking them.

 

[jmackenzie_15]

Good post Oz, I agree 100%.

 

[Cakear]

But for a province to arbitrarily lower the Canadian flag because they are not getting what they want does seem alot like they went home and took there ball with them cause it was a game they did not want to play.

Yes all provinces should have a voice.   Yes they all should get a say.   But don't tell me that Newfoundland has not relied on the Feds to make ends meet for the last 10 to 20 years.

This attitude just proves that lowering the flag worked.  How many people knew about the injustice with Quebec about Churchill Falls?  How many people knew the effect the moratorium had on the entire province of Newfoundland?  How many people honestly knew how the Feds were screw*ing the province by attempting to wiggle out of a promise made back in June of last year? Newfoundland has been "playing the game" by the rules for a long long time and very few people west of Halifax had any idea.   Everybody knew that this was a "have-not" promise, but did anyone really know why???

Whether one agrees with the lowering of the flag or not, you have to admit that more is known about the plight of Newfoundland & Labrador by the rest of the country than was known before Christmas.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Whether one agrees with the lowering of the flag or not, you have to admit that more is known about the plight of Newfoundland & Labrador by the rest of the country than was known before Christmas.

I totally agree with you and that is why i think it was a political mistake.

yes it go the attention but no comes the rath.

How do you put them back up with no deal in hand without looking like you lost?

Or do you not put them back up until you have a deal and further the issue. 

I heard that they are back up know, why did it happen?  No deal is in place did the deal Ottawa offered get sweeter i doubt it.

Sometimes one has to look two steps ahead to see if the move he is about to make will kick him in the ass in the morning.

MOO(my own opinion)

 

[Cakear]

Lost what??  He did it to grab attention, not to disgrace the flag . . . he got the attention and now the feds have said they'll talk.  By putting them back up, he's just confirmed to the rest of the country that he's Canadian and that he's sorry for offending Canada.  He might regret having done it, but I'm sure he doesn't regret the attention it got . . . positive OR negative.

Of course, this is just my opinion

 

[227Tech]

Glorified Ape,

Oh I read the 11 pages prior to my post and, strangely, found that half of your posts consist of saying "your argument is unintelligent and juvenile", first to Bruce and then to myself, posting a news story, and providing a link. In other words, you've posted 4 or 5 times (maybe I missed one) and managed to say absolutely nothing of any substance except to rag on others who actually offered an opinion. Congratulations - you're superfluous.

Yea you're absolutely right, but it doesn't change the fact that posting pure garbage is worse than not posting anything at all. I found Bruce's comment uncalled for an â Å“unprofessionalâ ? for an admin/moderator.  As for your colorful two cents, it wasn't worth the time it had taken to read it.

Of course you haven't seen beggars in St. John's - they'd starve. All your beggars come to Toronto or Montreal where they may actually stand a chance. If the entirety of your "intelligent opinion" consists of saying "Ontario sucks!"

Where the heck are you going with this? Not worth the response except to enlighten you that I don't think "Ontario sucks" on the contrary...I very much like Ontario.

As for saying "the feds are screwing us, so f-ck this country and its confederation", I'm sick of hearing it - from the politicians and the populous. No wonder our divorce rates are as high as they are with such a group of non-commital, peurile children who want to run away from the play pen every time the other guy gets a little more sand than them or doesn't treat them as the end-all and be-all of the preschool.

From what I remember here, no one has mentioned or hinted about leaving the country.  If there was a referendum held tomorrow I can all but guarantee you that it would be to stay in confederation, you can stop listening to all these rumors and gossip about Newfoundland wanting out cause it completely false; not once has Premier Williams or any one here talked about wanting to leave the country.  Whether you believe it or not, Newfoundlanders are proud Canadians, but even more so they are proud of being Newfoundlanders.

This isn't a matter of allowing Nfld. 100% revenues; it's how fast the feds pull back the pokey. Be glad there's pokey there to begin with. I'm not taking the feds side, necessarily, but I am taking issue with the idiotic attention-whoring of the premier which has served to do little else than stymie things even more.

Really.....maybe your right....the province would rather see the PM promise everyone in the province unlimited pokey instead of what resource revenues that we "should be" entitled to so the province can gain economic stability.  What you call "attention-whoring" was an aggressive move that was controversial enough to make everyone take notice.

feel free to comment, but if you intent to start a flame war you can just pm me any grievances and save the rest of the people the trouble.

Thanks,

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Lost what??   He did it to grab attention, not to disgrace the flag . . . he got the attention and now the feds have said they'll talk.   By putting them back up, he's just confirmed to the rest of the country that he's Canadian and that he's sorry for offending Canada.   He might regret having done it, but I'm sure he doesn't regret the attention it got . . . positive OR negative.

Of course, this is just my opinion

But i belive they would not talk until the flags went up either way you are right the attention was gotten be it positive or negative.

I just don't think it is right when people treat the flag like a posturing tool.  Be it Ottawa or a province.  At least our posts are civil seems like Ape and tech are having a spat.

 

[227Tech]

Are you trying to tell me that only Ont has beggars?

Please have you been to other cities in this great country of ours.

Oz,

I wasnt at all trying to say that Ont is the only province with beggers, if you have a look at the post you can see I was taking Glorified Ape on his meaning of "begger's can't be chooser's".  My intention was only to show that Newfoundlanders are anything but beggars, if thats his opinion.  Apparently my wording was a tad confusing, my apoligies.

But for a province to arbitrarily lower the Canadian flag because they are not getting what they want does seem alot like they went home and took there ball with them cause it was a game they did not want to play.

I think this is a real issue aswell, what you seem to think is Newfoundland not getting getting what it "wants" is a culture feeling its been robbed of what its entitled to.

Thanks,

 

[Cakear]

But i believe they would not talk until the flags went up . . .

I wasn't in Winnipeg in Dec. so I can't confirm . . . but I'm inclined to believe that they'd reached a point where they would not talk BEFORE the flags even came DOWN

. . . At least our posts are civil seems like Ape and tech are having a spat.

I totally agree . . . are you sure they're not American?   *Oooooooooo*   ;D

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Tech

Point taken and it is nice to see that somewhere at sometime people can agree with one another.

What they are entitled to and what they want may not always be the same thing.  but we shall save those arguments for another posting like Federal election called for fall 2005 or something like that.



how goes the battle with Ape


Cakear

i think Williams left and said the flags have to come down and then the feds said that they would not go back to the table until the flags went back up.

But am not totaly aware of the events i have a small dark office with only one candle and my computer screen for light.

 

[227Tech]

LOL you guys are right, lookin back...perphaps I shoulda let his last slide.  :threat:

And Cakear....not American, but I do have Irish in me 

*promises to stay more civil 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from 227Tech,
And for "Mr. Staff" person, I'm sorry but your ignorance is no reason for us to Justifiy what we already know, if you don't agree witih the facts presented to you than I'm sure you have the intelligence to go find the answers yourself and come back when you have compiled a mature argument.

...well if were not for thier little spat I would have missed this gem,...so do you have those "facts" I asked for yet?

....you know...about the "rigged vote"?

 

[227Tech]

Hi Bruce,

I definately owe you an answer, but to completely fair that comment was directed from this one:

You got any facts to back this up with smart guy?......or just more "waaaahhhh"?

Which wouldn't have triggered a responce, except for being a  moderator...more than anything I was questioning your ethics and professionalism as an administrator.  And rightfully so, I expect a high standard of professionalism with anyone tagged with such a title. 
Regardless, my method wasn't politcally or professionally correct at the same time either.

Since then I have seen that my first impression was completely wrong.

Actually that comment had nothing to do with the situation about who owns the oil, now if you would bother to read the whole thread I believe you will see that I think Nfld and NS should get to keep all of the revenue, the only issue I brought up is how long then before those provinces then become "have" provinces and then require less transfer payments. Someone mentioned at least 10 more years which seemed long to me, if this money was managed correctly.

Now as to way I am getting pissed off at the whining is, when bringing in an arguement don't present it as fact when it is ENTIRELY hearsay, which would be OK if it was presented as hearsay[ I remember my Dad telling me to pull his finger and I'm still waiting for the wish] but, in this case it was presented as fact and then reneged when called on it.
And to that, yes, that would be my best arguement.

Ex,
I have not checked out those threads yet, I'm waiting for a call.[darn dial-up]...but I will read them later tonight.

I don't recall any questions being directed to me

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

No it wasn't you I was questioning it was Deminer, who has since "pulled pole"... I admit I did see more red than I should have but that was the second time he had thrown the "rigged vote" up after I had asked for proof of such.
I love a lively spirited  "discussion", but as soon as  unproven rhetoric comes in, its like Bograt stated " its like asking if Jesus slept on his side or back"

Let the discussion continue...........!!!!