The Mars was outfitted with selectable drop system in its later years.
Kinda interesting that it was considered to big. Now we are seeing 747 and such being used.
De Havilland Cannada announces new calgary manufacturing facility
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Kinda interesting that it was considered to big. Now we are seeing 747 and such being used.
RangerRay
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I’ve only seen big tankers like 747’s, DC-10’s and Hercs used in the States, where they believe in “Go big or go home”. Biggest I’ve seen in Canada were Elektras (Martin Mars doesn’t count…they’re brought out for PR purposes when the general public raises a big stink).
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The big boys are used in places like California, where there is a SAC length runway about every 25NM.
That does not work in BC. Or really anywhere in Canada.
I got into a argument with some about the Mars Bomber, yesterday. They were of the opinion it should should still be in use. I am of the opinion that it is a one trick pony that delivers an 8000 gallon shot of water, a couple of times per hour, if you happen to have a big enough body of water nearby (which is a handy trick, sometimes). It is also a maintenance hog that runs on increasingly scarce AVGAS by the metric tonne and is kept alive only through a couple of Seacans full of WW2 surplus parts…
I am of the opinion that we need to transition bomber fleets in Canada to NVGs and HUDs and starting bombing after dark, when the winds drop off with the temperature and the humidity goes up. The fire behaviour is not so rancid and you can settle it down before morning stirs things up again.
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What do I know…
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The CL515 has a full glass cockpit with HUD and NVG compatible. Along with a few more goodies.
The Mars was outfitted with the selectable drop system. Was pretty impressive to see it work.
Also impressive was watching the Mars as a kid on Vancouver Island put fires out. That was when the logging companies owned and operated it. Back when trees burning meant loss of money for the company and the most.cost effective system was the one that worked.
Watching helps drop buckets of water on a few fires was like peeing on them.
As time goes on so does technology and the need for new fancy things.
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I saw it drop in anger, once. It was an awesome sight to behold. But I am also realistic the for the same cost per hour, you could have 2-3 CL-415s putting the same amount (or more) water on the same fire.
Back before the government got into Fire protection and Forestry companies controlled the skys they used what worked and worked fast. They had a arsenal of Helos, small scoopers and medium scoopers at their disposal.
I still remember after the gov took control of all fire suppression. A fire had just started off the Timberwest road within site of the new highway. The helos were dumping water all day , ground crews were in the attack. Finally Timberwest got tired of watching their money (trees) go up in smoke. They sent the Mars in, told the ground crew they were coming. A few hours later the fire was out. They got in trouble for doing it but they had to protect their investment.
I was heading out four wheeling in the mountains and was stopped by the Timberwest and Forestry guys at their gate. They said if you have a camera get it out, this will be one of the last times you will ever see this happen. Didn't have a camera, but was pretty awesome to see.
Coulson has since upgraded the Mars with a glass cockpit, ( I believe NVG compatible) Selectable drop system and were looking at going to turbine engines. The government refused to use them for services, stating smaller more agile aircraft were the future. Lots of politics involved, little common sense. But Its all history now, as we move into the modern day 747 aerial tankers and small pissers in the mix.
the CL Airtankers series may cost a few more dollars to operate then the single engines, but I still believe they are one of the most cost efficient/effective systems over a their life time on the market.
Sheer volume of water is not always the deciding factor, but sometimes it is. Constant large enough drops are what wins the battle. That is where the CL series excels.
in 4 years...
quadrapiper
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That whole discussion reeked of politics, especially given the 130s, 747s, and whatnot in use elsewhere. BC doesn't have the runways, but we do have lakes, so assuming that large drops are useful, something like the Mars seems like it would fill the "sledgehammer" slot in the toolchest.
Wonder what new-build would cost.
foresterab
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Not an aviation guy but I've been told there are less than 12 lakes in all of Alberta both large enough and DEEP enough to allow for the Mars to work. That's a very limited geography for effective operations and while we use scoopers (CL-215T and AT-802U's) they can operate on significantly smaller water bodies.
Mobility and the ability to deploy the same limited airframe is more important than a single resource that excels only in certain conditions as you can only have 1 airframe due to costs. Perfection is the enemy of good enough.
There has been significant changes in the last number of years and when the Martin Mars made it's reputation it was competing against TBF Avengers, A-26 bombers, DC-6's and early model CL-215's. B-17's were in use in the USA. Very different capacities just like the Bell 206 which was used for years for initial attack is almost gone as a machine due to performance increase an AS-350 offers.
I do miss the sound of the A-26's coming in though...
Blackadder1916
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I recall one episode back in the 1980s when I was in Gagetown that demonstrates that. I had just left the base, crossed over the bridge and was on my way to Moncton. As I started down the road alongside the river, a waterbomber (CL215) came wheeling in low from the base and made its run onto the river, scooped up a load and then wheeled back to the direction of the training area. Wasn't more than a few seconds on the water (or at least so it seemed) before it got into the air. Impressive.
It was a particularly busy fire season in the training area that year. That's the reason I was able to head off early on a Friday to Moncton. We had been out in the area but after starting three fires early in the day (which we put out - a M113 makes an effective tractor to tear up the ground and stamp out burning grass), end ex was called and we went in because of the fire hazard. I guess some of the others didn't make the same call, because by the afternoon there was quite a large fire in the training area. The rumour that went around (not confirmed either then or since) was that a M109 was abandoned to the fire.
I c
Political issues was all that mattered.
When the BC government got access to the Mars for free or deeply discounted they loved the machine. When they had to foot the bill for using it they hated the machine. They hated Mr Coulson and they hated that he was the big boy on the block telling them how to fight fires. He was the biggest and best at the time. Still one of the top in the world to this day.
The arguments of the plane cost to much to fly, it was out dated, fuel was in short supply, it was a one and done drop and all the other excuses are comical at best.
The Mars was updated with the newest Avionics, was or going to be NVG compatible, they installed a select drop system ( you could drop a small bit or water up to the whole load mixed with retardant or not) They were going to convert the plane over to Turbine. Would have increased power, reduced fuel consumption and allowed the plane to fly for many more decades. The politics of the day and today played a very large role in the demise of the Mars. So be it. ( the Bc governments new Aerial contractor crapped the bed so bad one year they Begged Coulson to assist, when he said no they ran a smear campaign. Of note he was deployed elsewhere)
On a plus side Coulson was allowed to finally continue updating and certifying other Aircraft for use in Canada, which previously he was not allowed to. As their company got busier elsewhere he dispersed his assets. The BC government were caught a few times with their pants down as Coulson was deployed fighting fires in other Countries and did not drop what they were doing to save Bc. That caused more political fall out. By then he did not give two craps,(never really did) They were well established elsewhere and did not have to deal with the complaining of a sniveling government who use to get aerial fire fighting for deeply discounted and or free.
The Mars may be seen as a iconic past time of memories, but that plane could still be providing valuable aerial firefighting services across Canada. All the excuses and all the reasons why it cant, are just excuses to not.
I know a few here have talked about the smaller firebosses being able to drop more on a pattern with multiple aircraft. Which in theory is good.
Sometimes you just need a large drop of slurry and or water all at once to hammer the target. With a larger plane you can generally do that. (not with all). But you do not have that option with smaller planes.
Similar to sometimes you need a small drone carrying a 40mm grenade (Fireboss), other times you need a 2000lb Jdam (Mars). Every tool has a purpose and task. One can accomplish a specific task while the other can accomplish all tasks with a larger margin of error.
Roughly I counted 46 lakes in Ab that would be of the size for the Mars to be able to scoop from.( they might empty a few of them, but that's the environment ministers problem at that time) Even during the Fort Mac fires they said the Mars could not be used there. Gregoire lake was of sufficient size for them to of been able to use. But they choose instead to not use a asset that would of helped suppress the fire.
Political issues was all that mattered.
When the BC government got access to the Mars for free or deeply discounted they loved the machine. When they had to foot the bill for using it they hated the machine. They hated Mr Coulson and they hated that he was the big boy on the block telling them how to fight fires. He was the biggest and best at the time. Still one of the top in the world to this day.
The arguments of the plane cost to much to fly, it was out dated, fuel was in short supply, it was a one and done drop and all the other excuses are comical at best.
The Mars was updated with the newest Avionics, was or going to be NVG compatible, they installed a select drop system ( you could drop a small bit or water up to the whole load mixed with retardant or not) They were going to convert the plane over to Turbine. Would have increased power, reduced fuel consumption and allowed the plane to fly for many more decades. The politics of the day and today played a very large role in the demise of the Mars. So be it. ( the Bc governments new Aerial contractor crapped the bed so bad one year they Begged Coulson to assist, when he said no they ran a smear campaign. Of note he was deployed elsewhere)
On a plus side Coulson was allowed to finally continue updating and certifying other Aircraft for use in Canada, which previously he was not allowed to. As their company got busier elsewhere he dispersed his assets. The BC government were caught a few times with their pants down as Coulson was deployed fighting fires in other Countries and did not drop what they were doing to save Bc. That caused more political fall out. By then he did not give two craps,(never really did) They were well established elsewhere and did not have to deal with the complaining of a sniveling government who use to get aerial fire fighting for deeply discounted and or free.
The Mars may be seen as a iconic past time of memories, but that plane could still be providing valuable aerial firefighting services across Canada. All the excuses and all the reasons why it cant, are just excuses to not.
I know a few here have talked about the smaller firebosses being able to drop more on a pattern with multiple aircraft. Which in theory is good.
Sometimes you just need a large drop of slurry and or water all at once to hammer the target. With a larger plane you can generally do that. (not with all). But you do not have that option with smaller planes.
Similar to sometimes you need a small drone carrying a 40mm grenade (Fireboss), other times you need a 2000lb Jdam (Mars). Every tool has a purpose and task. One can accomplish a specific task while the other can accomplish all tasks with a larger margin of error.
foresterab
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We had the Martin Mars on Richardson in 2011. The only lake at the time it was allowed to scoop from was Lake Athabasca. Keep in mind many Alberta Lakes are extremely shallow...I can think of several large, 50km long plus lakes that are less than 15' deep. This is a very different situation than the BC lakes which tend to be much deeper or as I understand it Ontario lakes.I c
Roughly I counted 46 lakes in Ab that would be of the size for the Mars to be able to scoop from.( they might empty a few of them, but that's the environment ministers problem at that time) Even during the Fort Mac fires they said the Mars could not be used there. Gregoire lake was of sufficient size for them to of been able to use. But they choose instead to not use a asset that would of helped suppress the fire.
Political issues was all that mattered.
When the BC government got access to the Mars for free or deeply discounted they loved the machine. When they had to foot the bill for using it they hated the machine. They hated Mr Coulson and they hated that he was the big boy on the block telling them how to fight fires. He was the biggest and best at the time. Still one of the top in the world to this day.
The arguments of the plane cost to much to fly, it was out dated, fuel was in short supply, it was a one and done drop and all the other excuses are comical at best.
The Mars was updated with the newest Avionics, was or going to be NVG compatible, they installed a select drop system ( you could drop a small bit or water up to the whole load mixed with retardant or not) They were going to convert the plane over to Turbine. Would have increased power, reduced fuel consumption and allowed the plane to fly for many more decades. The politics of the day and today played a very large role in the demise of the Mars. So be it. ( the Bc governments new Aerial contractor crapped the bed so bad one year they Begged Coulson to assist, when he said no they ran a smear campaign. Of note he was deployed elsewhere)
On a plus side Coulson was allowed to finally continue updating and certifying other Aircraft for use in Canada, which previously he was not allowed to. As their company got busier elsewhere he dispersed his assets. The BC government were caught a few times with their pants down as Coulson was deployed fighting fires in other Countries and did not drop what they were doing to save Bc. That caused more political fall out. By then he did not give two craps,(never really did) They were well established elsewhere and did not have to deal with the complaining of a sniveling government who use to get aerial fire fighting for deeply discounted and or free.
The Mars may be seen as a iconic past time of memories, but that plane could still be providing valuable aerial firefighting services across Canada. All the excuses and all the reasons why it cant, are just excuses to not.
I know a few here have talked about the smaller firebosses being able to drop more on a pattern with multiple aircraft. Which in theory is good.
Sometimes you just need a large drop of slurry and or water all at once to hammer the target. With a larger plane you can generally do that. (not with all). But you do not have that option with smaller planes.
Similar to sometimes you need a small drone carrying a 40mm grenade (Fireboss), other times you need a 2000lb Jdam (Mars). Every tool has a purpose and task. One can accomplish a specific task while the other can accomplish all tasks with a larger margin of error.
Tree size is also a big issue on the slugs. The smaller boreal trees can literally shatter making it too unsafe to crews to go in. However this very forest condition dependent and a completely different situation from the coastal BC forests. Different ground, different tools, different needs.
There are still more then 40 plus lakes that work, the selectable drop system they installed works pretty slick. I could see Firefighting ops draining some of the lakes here, similar to what Fracs do sometimes.
No matter what it would take a miracle to bring the Mars back.
As for snapping/ shattering small trees, it snapped big ones also. But Fires make snags as bad or worse. Politics come into play. The plane work for years fighting fires in BC when the Logging companies owned and operated it for their asset protection. Hit hard and hit fast.
Who knows maybe De Havilland has something up their sleeve for a larger Amphib plane in the future.
quadrapiper
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Within the context of large waterbombers, is that significantly more limited than airfields that could host non-amphibious equivalents, stand fast the Hercules?
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Jumping back to the topic at hand, (as neat as the Mars is) what is DHC building in Calgary?
Recent looks at their social media indicates that they've got at least one CL-515 coming off the line, indicating some level of production capability ongoing on top of maintenance and parts manufacture.
Looking at their social media, they have sent reps to a number of different locations, including:
-IDEX 2023 in Abu Dhabi (Feb)
-MRO Middle East in Dubai (Mar)
-MRO Americas in Atlanta (Apr)
-Paris Air Show
Signed deals with Fokker and ATSA airlines for parts and cargo door conversion bits.
Seems like they are keeping busy, trying to flog their stuff, and I suspect that with the recent wild fires in NS and other parts of the nation, that the CL-515 will be a subject of considerable interest.
NS
Recent looks at their social media indicates that they've got at least one CL-515 coming off the line, indicating some level of production capability ongoing on top of maintenance and parts manufacture.
Looking at their social media, they have sent reps to a number of different locations, including:
-IDEX 2023 in Abu Dhabi (Feb)
-MRO Middle East in Dubai (Mar)
-MRO Americas in Atlanta (Apr)
-Paris Air Show
Signed deals with Fokker and ATSA airlines for parts and cargo door conversion bits.
Seems like they are keeping busy, trying to flog their stuff, and I suspect that with the recent wild fires in NS and other parts of the nation, that the CL-515 will be a subject of considerable interest.
NS
Colin Parkinson
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I utterly love the Mars and grew up with them thundering overhead. However they are 77 years old now and it's time to retire them I think.
