Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[daftandbarmy]

Lawyers and Management Consultants! Yeah . Right.

 

[mariomike]

Running something that needs a medic nearby? But you have a few paramedics in your reserve engineer squadron? Good to go.

For clarication.

In case the CAF wants to take advantage of PRes members who happen to be off-duty Ontario paramedics,

Paramedics have no medical delegation or authority to perform controlled acts as a bystander, a firefighter, a first responder or in any other job capacity when they are off duty.

https://tbrhsc.net/wp-content/base-hospital/policies/MC-400.pdf

They can call 9-1-1 with the best of them. But, other than first-aid and CPR, that's about it.

 

[KevinB]

For clarication.

In case the CAF wants to take advantage of PRes members who happen to be off-duty Ontario paramedics,

https://tbrhsc.net/wp-content/base-hospital/policies/MC-400.pdf

They can call 9-1-1 with the best of them. But, other than first-aid and CPR, that's about it.

While true, the CAF could set them up like a Ranger Medic or like, and create a secondary MOSID and work in missing training gaps as needed.

 

[daftandbarmy]

You are missing the point.

This isn’t about firefighters. (My unit had three for a time btw) or how many are in the reserves. It’s about leveraging the skill sets some people can bring to the table that can be used when needed.

Being in a government town I was, at one time, taken to task for trying to recruit public servants.

Clearly, there are alot of skills present in the public service that are useful in a CAF context, they are all local residents and so unlikely to move cities (unlike students), and they all have clauses in their employment agreements that permit them to take time off for military training.

This went against the grain of harvesting young and impressionable (and much faster and easier to recruit) souls from local high schools and colleges though, so this idea was consigned to the dustbin of history by the reigning autarks

 

[mariomike]

Clearly, there are alot of skills present in the public service that are useful in a CAF context, they are all local residents and so unlikely to move cities (unlike students), and they all have clauses in their employment agreements that permit them to take time off for military training.

This was the Military Leave policy for the government I worked for. Not sure how it compares to others.

Military Service

Policy Statement The City of Toronto supports employees who want to participate in the military reserve force and allows them to take a leave of absence to fulfill their reserve duties. Application All employees listed below are eligible for Military Service leave. Non-union employees CUPE local...

www.toronto.ca

Employees can take a leave of absence with pay, for the two week period of absence, to attend the Canadian Armed Forces Reserve Training Program.

The maximum period of absence is two weeks in a calendar year.

Employees applying for leave must provide their executive director/general manager/division head or designate with a letter of support from their commanding officer.

Employees are paid their regular pay provided they submit any compensation received for military service to the city treasurer, unless this compensation is paid for days they are not scheduled to work.

Note: The last part of that sentence can work to your advantage if you are on a 12 / 24 -hour shift schedule.

Compensation received for travelling expenses and meal allowance does not have to be returned to the city.

All benefits continue during the leave.

An employee’s service is not affected by the leave. An employee’s vacation entitlement, and pension credit do not change.

This went against the grain of harvesting young and impressionable (and much faster and easier to recruit) souls from local high schools and colleges though, so this idea was consigned to the dustbin of history by the reigning autarks

I joined the PRes when I was 16. At that age, I was pretty "moldable".

 

[desindarfur]

When I was working in the Ontario Public Service they had a policy that allowed for one week of paid leave of absence for military training.

 

[mariomike]

When I was working in the Ontario Public Service they had a policy that allowed for one week of paid leave of absence for military training.

The 2 weeks annual paid leave we got was pretty generous, in my opinion.

It cost our city taxpayers 200 hours in salary. ( 80 hours for the reservist + 80 hours OT at time and a half for your replacement ).

 

[markppcli]

You are missing the point.

This isn’t about firefighters. (My unit had three for a time btw) or how many are in the reserves. It’s about leveraging the skill sets some people can bring to the table that can be used when needed.

No you’ve missed my point. I used fire fighters as an example, then I followed up with nurses. The salient point being you can’t rely on people coming in to do their civilian job for less money, or even expect them to. Because who would want to?

 

[daftandbarmy]

No you’ve missed my point. I used fire fighters as an example, then I followed up with nurses. The salient point being you can’t rely on people coming in to do their civilian job for less money, or even expect them to. Because who would want to?

 

[markppcli]

Being in a government town I was, at one time, taken to task for trying to recruit public servants.

Clearly, there are alot of skills present in the public service that are useful in a CAF context, they are all local residents and so unlikely to move cities (unlike students), and they all have clauses in their employment agreements that permit them to take time off for military training.

This went against the grain of harvesting young and impressionable (and much faster and easier to recruit) souls from local high schools and colleges though, so this idea was consigned to the dustbin of history by the reigning autarks

I’m sure your unit would have been keen to gainfully employ 17 new OCdts.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I’m sure your unit would have been keen to gainfully employ 17 new OCdts.

GIven the CAF's ability to piss off new Potential Officers to the point that they quit in frustration, having 17 to start with would mean that we'd likley get one or two through their (at least) two years of training

 

[FJAG]

Being in a government town I was, at one time, taken to task for trying to recruit public servants.

Clearly, there are alot of skills present in the public service that are useful in a CAF context, they are all local residents and so unlikely to move cities (unlike students), and they all have clauses in their employment agreements that permit them to take time off for military training.

This went against the grain of harvesting young and impressionable (and much faster and easier to recruit) souls from local high schools and colleges though, so this idea was consigned to the dustbin of history by the reigning autarks

The interesting thing about the PRes in the legal branch is that every ResF legal officer recruit has to already be a qualified lawyer fully licensed to practice law in their province. This makes the recruiting process somewhat unique. The establishment was 65 across the country inclusive of those recruited for DMP and DDCS who were primarily chosen from the criminal bar. We managed to pretty much stay at 90-95% of establishment year-round and occasionally hit 100%.

One big thing is that the training path is tremendously shortened by concentrating on folks already called to the bar. Essentially all we had to do was add on the training for Mil Admin Law, Ops Law and Mil Justice Law through the same modules that were given to the RegF LegOs. Those modules were easily achievable by reservists.

Effectively, there is no difference between a newly trained ResF and RegF LegO although from that point forward the experience levels start to diverge dramatically as a result of the fact that RegF ones are totally employed in Mil Admin and Ops Law and therefore start to pull away knowledge wise. There is one great reversal of that, however. ResF criminal law lawyers work full time in the field at a much more intense and complex level than RegF Mil Justice ones. RegF DMP and DDCS LegOs have nowhere near the depth and breadth of criminal justice experience that the ResF ones have. In my day we had several ResF DMP and DDCS LegOs who were mentors and subject matter experts for the RegF ones.

The value of a civilian professional in a military organization can vary greatly. The trick is identifying where the strengths and weaknesses are and leveraging the strengths to maximum effect within the general limitations that ResF service brings to the table.

 

[Remius]

No you’ve missed my point. I used fire fighters as an example, then I followed up with nurses. The salient point being you can’t rely on people coming in to do their civilian job for less money, or even expect them to. Because who would want to?

It isn’t about them coming in to do their job all the time. It’s about leveraging the skills they have when needed.

If I can get the fire fighter to deliver few hours of PFET training in the fall rather than wait x amount of time to get one and get that check in the box then why not? It’s not about making them our unit fire fighter or unit nurse.

We’ve had police officers in our unit teach guys how to properly effectuate citizen arrests (dom ops context) . None of them had an issue with it and none were crying foul over money.

I know it’s hard to believe for some but plenty of reservists with careers and jobs aren’t in it for the money.

 

[FJAG]

No you’ve missed my point. I used fire fighters as an example, then I followed up with nurses. The salient point being you can’t rely on people coming in to do their civilian job for less money, or even expect them to. Because who would want to?

I'll disagree with that.

My ResF daily rate of pay was less than my hourly billing rate as a civilian lawyer. Every full day of ResF service was roughly $500.00 net out of my own pocket as well as almost as much out of my partnership's income. That was and remains true for many of the ResF LegOs in the system (except for the ones in provincial or federal government service).

Our folks were there for entirely different reasons. I used to run a one week summer field exercise for both the RegF and ResF LegO in Prairie region which did everything from small arms live fire to teaching folks how to cook and eat military rations and sleep in the woods (besides such things as doing POW determination tribunals).

It was the change from the ordinary day-to-day stuff and the camaraderie of ResF service that grabbed them.

We had a few clunkers but for the most part they were enthusiasts.

 

[markppcli]

It isn’t about them coming in to do their job all the time. It’s about leveraging the skills they have when needed.

If I can get the fire fighter to deliver few hours of PFET training in the fall rather than wait x amount of time to get one and get that check in the box then why not? It’s not about making them our unit fire fighter or unit nurse.

We’ve had police officers in our unit teach guys how to properly effectuate citizen arrests (dom ops context) . None of them had an issue with it and none were crying foul over money.

I know it’s hard to believe for some but plenty of reservists with careers and jobs aren’t in it for the money.

If your in a dom op it’s not a citizens arrest, you’re a peace officer in that context. My point was an expectation of using civilians skills is building on a poor foundation. It’s great you have guys willing to do that, but imagine trying to organize across a wide breadth of units and civilian skills to make that happen, or ensuing your IBTS requirements actually align with the way it’s being taught. Telling a soldier “hey Steve, your a plumber right? Next week I’m going to need you to fix the plumbing in mens bathroom” is probably not the direction you want to go to build the reserves in terms of numbers or capability.

I'll disagree with that.

My ResF daily rate of pay was less than my hourly billing rate as a civilian lawyer. Every full day of ResF service was roughly $500.00 net out of my own pocket as well as almost as much out of my partnership's income. That was and remains true for many of the ResF LegOs in the system (except for the ones in provincial or federal government service).

Our folks were there for entirely different reasons. I used to run a one week summer field exercise for both the RegF and ResF LegO in Prairie region which did everything from small arms live fire to teaching folks how to cook and eat military rations and sleep in the woods (besides such things as doing POW determination tribunals).

It was the change from the ordinary day-to-day stuff and the camaraderie of ResF service that grabbed them.

We had a few clunkers but for the most part they were enthusiasts.

Were you being asked to review charges or contracts as a lawyer when you showed up?

 

[mariomike]

My point was an expectation of using civilians skills is building on a poor foundation.

Nice if you are invited to give a lecture next week in a classroom at the armoury.

Not so nice to be doing your MSE Op job on a field ex., and people screaming, "Hey you! Medic!!" - while pointing dirctly at you.

 

[Remius]

If your in a dom op it’s not a citizens arrest, you’re a peace officer in that context. My point was an expectation of using civilians skills is building on a poor foundation. It’s great you have guys willing to do that, but imagine trying to organize across a wide breadth of units and civilian skills to make that happen, or ensuing your IBTS requirements actually align with the way it’s being taught. Telling a soldier “hey Steve, your a plumber right? Next week I’m going to need you to fix the plumbing in mens bathroom” is probably not the direction you want to go to build the reserves in terms of numbers or capability.


Were you being asked to review charges or contracts as a lawyer when you showed up?

Once again it’s isn’t about building this structurally into the reserves.

And no you have that absolutely wrong about being a peace officer in that context. It was quite the opposite and dealing with situations where we weren’t acting as peace officers but dealing with potential issues that arise in dom ops that could lead to troops having to effectuate citizen arrests. If we were acting as peace officers we’d be making actual arrests which was not the case. The citizen arrest training was to show them how to do it correctly and legally.

Again, it’s not about abusing someone’s skill set but using it when the the institution fails us as it does very often. I already provided actual examples where in a pinch their quals came in handy. Maintaining a list and getting them checked off for certain things is just a smart easy thing to do. Not sure why you would want to ignore it.

You seem to to think it has something to do with going to recruit from those groups. It’s isn’t. It’s about the 17 year old who joins stays in gets his career off the ground but still serves. The fire fighters we had all started with the unit became fire fighters and still served for a time. The cops are mostly the same but a few are ex reg force who joined. We had a nurse that was with us fir about 7 years but didn’t join as a nurse. Was a student who became one. There are still some that will join after getting a career somewhere else but it’s more the guys who are in and have the mentality of wanting to help where and when they can because of their initial links to the unit.

How many times do we lament that private industry should recognize military quals and what they can bring to the table? I bet someone somewhere made similar arguments that you have made and nothing ever gets done to fix that.

 

[markppcli]

Once again it’s isn’t about building this structurally into the reserves.

And no you have that absolutely wrong about being a peace officer in that context. It was quite the opposite and dealing with situations where we weren’t acting as peace officers but dealing with potential issues that arise in dom ops that could lead to troops having to effectuate citizen arrests. If we were acting as peace officers we’d be making actual arrests which was not the case. The citizen arrest training was to show them how to do it correctly and legally.

In what context, in a dom op, would you be conducting a citizens arrest?

Again, it’s not about abusing someone’s skill set but using it when the the institution fails us as it does very often. I already provided actual examples where in a pinch their quals came in handy. Maintaining a list and getting them checked off for certain things is just a smart easy thing to do. Not sure why you would want to ignore it.

The context of this conversation arouse from how to get more support trades into the reserves… so yeah we’d need to be able to rely on the use of those skills.

You seem to to think it has something to do with going to recruit from those groups. It’s isn’t. It’s about the 17 year old who joins stays in gets his career off the ground but still serves. The fire fighters we had all started with the unit became fire fighters and still served for a time. The cops are mostly the same but a few are ex reg force who joined. We had a nurse that was with us fir about 7 years but didn’t join as a nurse. Was a student who became one. There are still some that will join after getting a career somewhere else but it’s more the guys who are in and have the mentality of wanting to help where and when they can because of their initial links to the unit.

Never said that. What I’ve said, and I’ve been fairly clear in this, is that those people aren’t going to want to join to do their civilian jobs for less money. What you just described is completely different .

How many times do we lament that private industry should recognize military quals and what they can bring to the table? I bet someone somewhere made similar arguments that you have made and nothing ever gets done to fix that.

I don’t, and for most trades they actually do. Frankly my ability to organize a section isn’t super relevent to most jobs… maybe early childhood education.

 

[daftandbarmy]

How many times do we lament that private industry should recognize military quals and what they can bring to the table? I bet someone somewhere made similar arguments that you have made and nothing ever gets done to fix that.

OTOH, at one time, my rifle company complement included a nuclear physicist who was #2 on the C6. She did a great job on the gun team.

I'm not sure the CAF would have been qualified to employ her civilian skills anywhere, even if she had offered

 

[FJAG]

Were you being asked to review charges or contracts as a lawyer when you showed up?

The job changed quite a bit over the years as I moved up and as the terms of reference of what LegOs did and had to do.

In my early years as a major I was a jack of all trades doing all of the above and much more. One of my biggest roles then was "legal advice by walking around" which essentially was visiting the district's units during their parade nights and exercises and having coffee with folks. It's surprising how much you can find out about the issues a unit is having by having a friendly cup of coffee with them. I also did a fair bit of prosecuting and defence work in those days. (This was before DMP and DDCS when we prosecuted within our own region and would be called on as defence counsel in other regions). A ton of lecturing on Ops Law (primarily LOAC) and Mil Justice.

As lieutenant colonel DAJAG the job was mainly supervising all the ResF LegOs in MilAreaPrairie, dealing with the district commanders and CWO on broad legal issues and working on appellate cases before the CMAC. That later switched to a role as a DLaw/SP with DLawT to do training which turned out to be a bust (funding issues for exercises) so I turned my attention to creating policy documents for ResF LegO governance and a further ton of lecturing on Ops Law.

My last job as DJAG/Res was a the CAF's senior ResF legal advisor where I was concerned with overall governance of all ResF LegOs (but not command as that remained within the various directorates), advising CRes and Cadets and Council; providing legal advice on various ResF centric projects and participating in international ResF agencies (a lot of swanning around on that but very busy).

Long story short. The job a ResF LegO does is very much dependant on what they are willing to do and what their AJAG or Director assigns them to do. Some stay connected primarily to their ResF brigades and provide the bulk of the legal services to them while other who have special talents are much more used across the board. Each of an AJAG office, DMP and DDCS is in fact a total force organization which is commanded by a RegF LegO with a ResF deputy and a variety of RegF and ResF LegOs with varying talents. How each operates is very much personality and ability driven.

One point on contracts. In my day there wasn't much contract work for AJAGs (and none for DMP or DDCS that I know of). Much of that is specialized work that's more in the purview of DND&CF LA (and prior to DND&CF LA there was a JAG directorate that did most of that). There was some minor claims work decentralized to AJAGs but contracting isn't really part of what ResF LegOs get involved in even though some of them were experts at it in their private practice.