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Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

  • Thread starter Thread starter Yard Ape
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ArmyRick said:
I personally agree with the idea of consolidating reserve regiments. Yeah I can hear the arguments now
"What about the history?"
"What about the traditions?"
"We won X number of battle honours..."

Blah, blah, blah. The sad reality is that a RHQ is costly and having it run a 100 man unit is ridicolus.
Another point, almost all of our reserve regiments were a result of amalgamations or multiple changes from the time they first stood up.

One of my old regiments, The Lorne Scots (Peel, Dufferin and Halton Regiment) is an example. They celebrate 1866 as the founding year. However the Lorne Scots as it is now was formed in 1936 by combining 3 different county regiments (With battle honours from WW1) into a new regiment.

Option 1
No sacred cows, no political bull, no side agendas, TIME TO AMALGAMATE THE REGIMENTS!!! The needs of the Forces comes first.

The only people who suffer by keeping these units alive like this are the 40 young men who could not be recruited because we had to spend the money keeping way more LCol and CWO on strength then we need.

So for example, the Lornes, G and SF and Tor Scots may be amalgamated together to form the 1st battalion, Southern Ontario Regiment. New Cap badge, new colours, new traditions.

Option 2, The "London Regiment" example . Lets say we go with this
1st Battalion, Southern Ontario Regiment (example)
RHQ (where ever)
A (Toronto Scottish) Company (Mississauga and Toronto)
B (Lorne Scots) Company (Brampton, Oakville and Georgetown)
C (Grey and Simcoe Forester) Company (Barrie and Owen Sound)

Each company would wear its distinctive former regimental affiliation. On exercise, no worry, they are no cap badges on helmets and bush hats.

For Ceremonial parades, the CO and RSM would wear the appropriate regimental dress for that area. Example on Saturday LCol Bloggins wears a G and SF DEU for the freedom of the city of Barrie and two weeks later he might be in a Tor Scot DEU at a cenotaph dedication ceremony.

Ideas? I have put forth COA #1 and COA#2

Call me crazy, but consolidation smacks of defeatism. I'd be more inclined to do some research into what would attract and hold people to units, then do lots of that. There are enough people who travel long distances to parade at various units for good reasons, let's build on that kind of success story vs. implode the organization.
 
I always cringe when I see this thread pop up in my "Recent Unread Topics" list.
 
Me three!

Look to 38 CBG. They have been doing this for years, even to the point e.g. that the CO of the two Wpg Inf units has two CF uniforms.
 
daftandbarmy said:
Call me crazy, but consolidation smacks of defeatism. I'd be more inclined to do some research into what would attract and hold people to units, then do lots of that. There are enough people who travel long distances to parade at various units for good reasons, let's build on that kind of success story vs. implode the organization.

How would such changes implode the organization?  We are mandated to have an Army Reserve of about 20 000.  Working from that:

We organize into Company-sized building blocks.  A company is, for the sake of argument, 125 people.  To support a trained company of 125 soliders, we need recruits of about 35, with their own leadership and trainers of about 15 - call it 50 people.

Therefore, we are talking about a minimum size of 175 people, all ranks, to sustain a single company.  One hundred such companies will require 17 500 Army Reservists.

Adding bn HQ structures with another 50 people each, at a rate of one per four companies, equals 25 Bn HQs requiring another 1 250 Army Reservists.

Adding five Bde HQs, each with 100 people (to account for geography and a need for some redundancy for part-time soliders) and we need another 500 Army Reservists.

We are then left with 750 unallocated positions, to provide for Div and above troops, such as Info Ops, Int or others - we could make five under-strength companies, one per CBG.


Thus, starting from the known limit of 20K troops, we can have 100 companies organized into 25 Bns organized into 5 Bdes.

Right now, we have 51 Infantry "bn" HQs alone.  Therein lies a fundamental problem - and preserving The Royal Buckshot Fusiliers of Tisdale, SK solely because they had a solider attached to 1 CAN Div who got lost in Paris in a 1950s flyover serves no ones interests or needs.

We've got massive excesses of structure, all demanding to be filled.  Cull the structure ruthlessly - to increase and enhance the capability.
 
daftandbarmy,

Your example is a very rare exception not the rule. I have dealt numerous occassions with young 17-19 year old males (typical PRes infantry recruit) and the reasons they join are mostly things along the line of wanting be a soldier, wanting to blow stuff up, wanting to live the adventure, wanting to wear a cool uniform, etc, etc.

Very few of these young soldiers joined this regiment or that regiment because of "long proud history" or "How many battle honours they won".

Lets live in the here and now. We SHOULD not be supporting so many bloody RHQ, its way over redundant. Defeatism? How about what smacks of "lets never change with the times"

Every thing changes including armies and we must evolve. Or we become irrelevant. If we become irrelevant, then the Taxpayer and the Gov't will think of nothing to get rid of us.

When change is neccessary, we owe it to ourselves, Canadians, the governor general and the Gov't to change.

 
dapaterson said:
- and preserving The Royal Buckshot Fusiliers of Tisdale, SK solely because they had a solider attached to 1 CAN Div who got lost in Paris in a 1950s flyover serves no ones interests or needs.

:rofl:

STOP IT!!  People are hearing me laugh at NDHQ...

:rofl:
 
ArmyRick said:
Option 2, The "London Regiment" example . Lets say we go with this
1st Battalion, Southern Ontario Regiment (example)
RHQ (where ever)
A (Toronto Scottish) Company (Mississauga and Toronto)
B (Lorne Scots) Company (Brampton, Oakville and Georgetown)
C (Grey and Simcoe Forester) Company (Barrie and Owen Sound)

Each company would wear its distinctive former regimental affiliation. On exercise, no worry, they are no cap badges on helmets and bush hats.

For Ceremonial parades, the CO and RSM would wear the appropriate regimental dress for that area. Example on Saturday LCol Bloggins wears a G and SF DEU for the freedom of the city of Barrie and two weeks later he might be in a Tor Scot DEU at a cenotaph dedication ceremony.
I prefer the multi-regimental battalion solution.  It should get fewer panties in a knot.  However, I would waste absolutely no money on providing the CO & RSM with multiple uniforms so they can mascaraed as from whichever of the historical regiments.  If a CO wearing another regimental capbadge is going to be catastrophic to the moral of distinct sub-units, then for the LCol and CWO of the Reserve Force to wear the Army accouterments of regular force Col and formation CWO.

dapaterson said:
Thus, starting from the known limit of 20K troops, we can have 100 companies organized into 25 Bns organized into 5 Bdes.
According to Wikipedia1, Canada has 18 P Res Armd Regt and 47 P Res Infantry Regiments.  Assuming that three of the five battalions in each of your brigades is a manoeuvre unit, that would see 60 companies to perpetuate the existing 65 P Res manoeuvre regiments.  At only five regimental amalgamations necessary, that is not a bad CoA.  We could also acknowledge that there are three P Res regiments that are not dependant upon the P Res for their lineage (RCR, R22eR and 12 RBC) - as such, only four regiments would have to be "blended" in two seperate sub-units.




1.  It is acknowledged that Wikipedia is not free of errors, but in this case it is accurate enough for the big-hand small-map analysis for which it has been referenced.
 
The issue of perpetuation of history and lineage is a red herring.

The Brockville Rifles, Princess of Wales Own Regiment and Stormont Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders (commonly referred to as the "river rats" as all three units are along the St. Lawrence River) have a shared history, shared WW2 battle honours and a shared lineage.  Some of this history is also sharded by the now defunct Peterborough Rangers (now the home of B Coy Hast & PER)

So, with this in mind, what would be the stretch to form a "River Rat Battalion"?  Two companies (minus), an A Ech and a HQ commanded by one of the three Command Teams, with due consideration to succession ability and seniority.  The Brocks and Glens are already "tactically grouped" and have been conducting joint training for over two years.

Of course, there would be some logistical and administrative hurdles. For example the PWOR and Brocks are supported by Kingston, the Hast & PER by Trenton and the Glens by CFSU Ottawa.  Only one of those three support bases is actually owned by the Army.  Trenton is Air Force and Ottawa is VCDS.

Each unit maintains it's own cap badge, distinct DEU and local infrastructure - complete with Messes.  Each unit is responsible for force generating it's own soldiers from the local catchment areas.  BMQ and BMQ(L) training could be centralized with staff and equipment pooled.

Each unuit could continue to train and develop its own officers and NCMs but succession planning for command would be a shared effort.  Not each would need to generate a LCol, CWO, and a couple Maj or MWO every two to three years.

Sounds like a plan?  Sound familiar?  (I think there's a few threads suggesting this already).  :deadhorse:
 
Beat that horse! Tenderized horse done up in a chilly taste delicous!

Seriously, Yeah that is what I envision as my COA 2 in my two suggestions. A very important practical principle behind this is having each Unit (company) train mostly at platoon and coy level during the year, maybe massing together once or twice a year for BG exercise.

Admin support would have to be coordinated carefully. (The idea of having the entire river rat regt being forced to due all its unit admin out of say Kingston is not practical at all). For dispersed units this would definately have to be coordinated.

I came up with a third COA. I could have sworn (I wish I saved a copy of the document) that the PRes was supposed to grow to 30,000 by 2035 or something along that lines (either I read it or I was really over due to toss out my Creemore unpasturized beer!). If the Pres were to increase to 30,000 then I could certainly see each infantry unit growing to a Battalion minus size (maybe 2 trained coys and 1 coy for courses and holding). That would then certainly justify a LCol and CWO for each unit.

Does anybody else remember reading this or am I using too much cough medicine again?
 
Well.  Being in a Platoon with the size of a Coy, we find it rather difficult to train.  We don't have enough 'Leadership' on all levels to provide for all the necessary day to day requirements of manning, meet Taskings from CFTPO, provide Instructors to Area, National and Branch Schools, and then run our own Training.  PWT is a real pain, as we don't have the Staff to properly run the unit through, with the Staff being able to qualify as well.  No authority to have a CQ hurts as well.  We do not have any field stores, and only a van and MILCOT for transport.  Imagination and networking are highly prized commodities.

So.  Be very careful as to how small you propose these 'Units' become.  Without the necessary pers in key posns and enough 'Leadership' (especially at the NCO/Snr NCO levels) the unit will not be able to function effectively and conduct the necessary trg and at the same time fill CFTPO and 'other' taskings that come along.
 
I might add, that the Established Strength of the Unit will have Line Serials for all the posns in the Unit.  You can only promote pers to meet what the unit has in its Line Serials.  There can only be one person in the rank of CO.  Only one filling the rank of RSM/CSM, etc.  You can not fill up your unit with pers filling ranks that out number the established Line Serial ranks. 

The smaller you make the units, the harder it is create a progressive program to perpetuate the hierarchy.
 
ArmyRick said:
I came up with a third COA. I could have sworn (I wish I saved a copy of the document) that the PRes was supposed to grow to 30,000 by 2035 or something along that lines (either I read it or I was really over due to toss out my Creemore unpasturized beer!). If the Pres were to increase to 30,000 then I could certainly see each infantry unit growing to a Battalion minus size (maybe 2 trained coys and 1 coy for courses and holding). That would then certainly justify a LCol and CWO for each unit.

Does anybody else remember reading this or am I using too much cough medicine again?

Overall CF P Res may be due to grow - but take off 4K NavRes, 2.5K Air Res, 1K Health Svcs Res, and you're left with overall growth of around 2.5K - to be spread among all four (ignoring the NDHQ PRL).

COA 3 is now a throwaway.
 
George Wallace said:
The smaller you make the units, the harder it is create a progressive program to perpetuate the hierarchy.
George,
People are not suggesting that units become smaller - they are suggesting the opposite.  Where we have many tiny units today, we should instead have one larger unit that can "perpetuate the hierarchy" from a gene pool that is multiple  times deeper.

George Wallace said:
I might add, that the Established Strength of the Unit will have Line Serials for all the posns in the Unit.  You can only promote pers to meet what the unit has in its Line Serials.  There can only be one person in the rank of CO.  Only one filling the rank of RSM/CSM, etc.  You can not fill up your unit with pers filling ranks that out number the established Line Serial ranks. 
I think this is already understood by most of the recent posters. 

George Wallace said:
Well.  Being in a Platoon with the size of a Coy, we find it rather difficult to train. 
Your unit may be unique or in a very small minority - most units are multiple times smaller than could be commanded & managed by the HQ with which they are established.  The majority are platoon to large company sized with a battalion HQ.

 
Sorry guys, but some of this discussion is like watching objects circling around a Black Hole. I clearly recall discussions along these lines in the 1990's (as part of Reserve 2000 or whatever the buzzword of the day was), and for 31 CBG, the proposal was to collapse the six Infantry regiments into 31 Light Infantry Bn, the two Armoured regiments into 31 Regt (RCAC), the two Artillery regiments become batteries of 31 Artillery, 3 Service battalions into 31 SVC BN etc.

Inertia and resistance from associations etc. kiboshed the plan, although in the fullness of time the three Service battalions did decay to the point there is now a 31 SVC BN, with enough troops to have critical mass and support the units of the Brigade. As noted, within five years of amalgamation, less than 10% of "A" Coy 31 LIB (Essex and Kent) would have any remembrance of the time there was an Essex and Kent Regiment due to the rapid turnover of pers in the Reserve world. In the ideal world the resources freed up by eliminating 15 sets of HQ's, LCol's, CSM's etc. etc. would translate into more boots on the ground and more and better training. In the real world, I suspect most of the cost savings would be "captured" at a high level and reallocated to other "priority" projects.
 
Some interesting thoughts on revitalization and the role of reserves:
Re-thinking the Reserves
David Pratt
The Ottawa Citizen
29 Mar 2011


Later this year, when the dusty boots of the last Canadian soldier march up the ramp of one of our hulking C-17s at Kandahar Airfield, the largest Canadian Forces combat mission since Korea will draw to a close. The training contingent that follows will continue the NATO objective of having the Afghan forces take responsibility for their own national security.

For our Forces, it will be an opportunity to remember the fallen, to study carefully and to absorb the lessons learned as they make the transition from a high operational tempo to a steadier state.

As the military leadership, politicians and the general public focus on the Canadian Forces post-Afghanistan, it will be tempting to focus directly on what went wrong and to try to fix it.

Based upon that criterion, it would be doubtful if the Army Reserves would receive much more than a second thought. If they had performed badly in the Kandahar mission, then the calls for an inquiry or commission would echo from every editorial pulpit in the country.

But the fact is that the Army Reserve performed exceedingly well and drew accolades from the senior command.

As Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie noted recently, "The Army could not have done what it did in Afghanistan without the Reserve. We would have crashed and burned. The country owes them a huge debt of gratitude."

So how do we repay that debt? Well, for starters, it is time we directed some attention to the Reserve. As an institution, it has been largely forgotten.

The best evidence of that is the antiquated nature of one of the three roles we have assigned to the Reserve. Over 65 years since the end of the Second World War, official Canadian defence policy lists "mobilization" as one of the three roles of the Army Reserve. The other two roles are "augmentation" and the Reserve's role as a "footprint in the community."

But, mobilization simply has no relevance to the strategic environment we face today or are likely to face in the decades ahead. The very thought that we would muster two army corps in an age of asymmetrical and cyber warfare is completely unrealistic.

In fact, the military brass doesn't even pay lip service to the idea anymore. As Lt.-Gen. (Ret'd) George Macdonald recently noted, "Total mobilization is a total waste of time."

If we discard mobilization, what is left? It is clear that the augmentation and the community footprint role remain valid and important. The Reserve's augmentation of the Regular Force in Afghanistan, where they accounted for up to 20 per cent of the Canadian contingent, was by all accounts critical to the mission's success.

The community footprint role is also vital since the Reserve's presence in over 120 communities ensures that Canadians don't see their Army as garrisoned in a few bases and disconnected from the rest of society.

So, what other role, or roles, can we assign the Reserve?

Perhaps it is time to formalize the domestic operations task that the Reservists have been doing for years in assisting civilian authorities with disasters and emergencies. But, it may also be important to consider other more updated roles.

Over the last year, our abilities to defend ourselves against cyber attacks have been tested.

Our NATO allies are increasingly devoting more resources and attention to this challenge which threatens our security and economic prosperity. Combining the digital literacy of the civilian population with the disciplined program of cyber-security through the auspices of the Canadian Forces may be yet another way for the Reserves to contribute to the safety and security of Canadians.

But it is not just the roles of the Reserves that need a re-think. The administration of our Army Reserve is rife with problems. The recruiting system needs attention. Many soldiers aren't getting paid on time. Training courses need to be better managed and the equipment provided to Reservists needs to be upgraded. Many Reservists also return from foreign deployments feeling that their contribution has not been appreciated.

How does all this get fixed? It has been 16 years since the Report of the Special Commission on Restructuring the Reserves.

Since then, much has changed. It is time the government appointed another special comission, or assigned a major study of the Reserves to the House of Commons Defence Committee. Individual reservists know what the problems are. We just need to give them a platform to help us fix them. After what they did for us in Afghanistan, we owe them at least this much.
 
You know, just focus on fixing the pay system. We are doing fine otherwise, I think.
 
Two years ago I took on the role of CSM of the Disaster Response Company in 38 CBG during the ice jams on the Red River. It was quite the experience gathering reservists from all over Saskatchewan, Manitoba and NW Ontario and blending them into a cohesive structured unit.
My thoughts? Domestic operations, particularly Aid to the Civil Power in the local area.

Just my :2c:
 
Dissident said:
You know, just focus on fixing the pay system. We are doing fine otherwise, I think.
The good news is that the "Military Personnel Management Capability Transformation Project" has a mandate to do that ... rather, it has a mandate that includes adopting a single CF pay system program.

I agree with the assessment that role, training management and organization all need to be looked at.  I believe the reserves can be both more effective and more efficient ... but I've already outlined my thoughts in this thread, so I will not repeat them all again right now.
 
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