Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[Humphrey Bogart]

I would do away with most local stuff if it were up to be me. Monthly weekend training, annual week long concentration. That allows for more centralization.

This is a better plan IMO. When I visited CEFE in France, all of the vehicles were there, with a full maintainer shop, warehouse, repair facility, etc.

Companies would rotate through and assume possession of the equipment while they were there and then drive them right back in to the garage when they were finished to be maintained and given to the next group that came through.

The vehicles that I saw were all in good condition. They had a Sqn of AMX-10s/Sqn of VBCIs, and a very low VOR rate, especially considering the age of the AMX-10 platform.

The OPFOR also had their own vehicle fleet. They had a troop of AMX-30s and they were all working!

 

[Furniture]

I lived that reality. It's not what you think it is. The 1 TAPV (in Three years I think I had 2 for 6 months tops) spent it's life rotating from Unit Trg (~3-4 months a year), to being flat bedded to Gagetown 3-4 times a year for maint and the mandatory "inspections" where it would sit for a month or so each time, with any remaining time spent in Gagetown IOT to conduct ranges/driving for courses. There were times we had to flat bed it for COMREL activities because it was broken waiting to be flat bedded to Gagetown. Don't put armoured vehs in places where there are no maint pers/equipment. Oh and originally (until I made a stink about my O&M) the 6-8k flat bedding costs came out of my budget. Yet I received the same per soldier as all the other Brigade Units.

So more ISVs and modern Milverados? Stuff the local GM dealership can maintain, and still looks cool to the locals?

 

[FJAG]

I have a friend thats a log o in the MN NG. Most of their techs are prior regulars who are on contracts as civilian techs for their warehoused equipment. Seems like the ideal set up, but would also require we depot equipment at scale.

I agree with centralized and warehoused equipment maintained by full-time staff. I'm leery of using civilian contractors. Somewhere in the system you need trained maintainers who are liable for operational deployment. I prefer putting that very necessary full-time pay to use by offering one or even two-year full-time contracts to PRes technicians coming off DP 1 courses (and wanting money, experience and DP 2 training), all supervised by a few senior RegF maintainers.

 

[markppcli]

I agree with centralized and warehoused equipment maintained by full-time staff. I'm leery of using civilian contractors. Somewhere in the system you need trained maintainers who are liable for operational deployment. I prefer putting that very necessary full-time pay to use by offering one or even two-year full-time contracts to PRes technicians coming off DP 1 courses (and wanting money, experience and DP 2 training), all supervised by a few senior RegF maintainers.

I think the key point here is that they way you keep maintainers in yhe reserves is by having a job for them to do full time. We are trying to get mechanics to do their day job for less money on the weekend and its having the predictable result.

 

[FJAG]

I think the key point here is that they way you keep maintainers in yhe reserves is by having a job for them to do full time. We are trying to get mechanics to do their day job for less money on the weekend and its having the predictable result.

I don't think that is desirable, necessary or affordable.

You need to look at two clear end products:
1) sufficient full-time maintainers to provide maintenance on all equipment in the inventory during peacetime; and
2) sufficient additional part-time maintainers who are liable be placed on active service to provide maintenance services during war time.
The numbers required for wartime are substantially higher than those needed for peacetime - probably four to five times as high.

You also need to take into account the life cycle of the average reservist.
1) During their younger years they are unemployed, inexperienced, seeking cash, single and available for full-time service.
2) As they grow older and gain experience they obtain civilian work, get married, have a family, are less available for military work during the week but have some availability for training on weekends and in the summer.

You can build a system that caters to both where you put people through their initial training (probably by way of a community college program on mechanics in general combined with additional military maintenance training on specific military equipment. That way the individual then gets both his civilian and military qualification and also becomes liable to pay the CAF back with some obligatory Class B or A service.

Follow that up with a year or two of full-time Class B so he gains experience and makes money and then keep him on for further obligatory Class A service in a part-time position in a maintenance unit.

The key here is that the full-time Class Bs maintain the equipment while the part-time Class As do not maintain equipment at all but instead train collectively on the field aspects of their job - in other words they get to practice more general military skills, gets some pay and are able to have a civilian job and family life.

But never, ever expect the Class As to actually maintain the equipment. That can't be done on a Class A part-time basis. They're you "break glass in case of fire folks."

You can't afford to have the full cohort of maintainers that you need for war on your full-time payroll during peacetime. Nor do you need that many. The bottom line is you need to build a system that caters to both needs.

 

[markppcli]

I don't think that is desirable, necessary or affordable.

You need to look at two clear end products:
1) sufficient full-time maintainers to provide maintenance on all equipment in the inventory during peacetime; and
2) sufficient additional part-time maintainers who are liable be placed on active service to provide maintenance services during war time.
The numbers required for wartime are substantially higher than those needed for peacetime - probably four to five times as high.

You also need to take into account the life cycle of the average reservist.
1) During their younger years they are unemployed, inexperienced, seeking cash, single and available for full-time service.
2) As they grow older and gain experience they obtain civilian work, get married, have a family, are less available for military work during the week but have some availability for training on weekends and in the summer.

You can build a system that caters to both where you put people through their initial training (probably by way of a community college program on mechanics in general combined with additional military maintenance training on specific military equipment. That way the individual then gets both his civilian and military qualification and also becomes liable to pay the CAF back with some obligatory Class B or A service.

Follow that up with a year or two of full-time Class B so he gains experience and makes money and then keep him on for further obligatory Class A service in a part-time position in a maintenance unit.

The key here is that the full-time Class Bs maintain the equipment while the part-time Class As do not maintain equipment at all but instead train collectively on the field aspects of their job - in other words they get to practice more general military skills, gets some pay and are able to have a civilian job and family life.

But never, ever expect the Class As to actually maintain the equipment. That can't be done on a Class A part-time basis. They're you "break glass in case of fire folks."

You can't afford to have the full cohort of maintainers that you need for war on your full-time payroll during peacetime. Nor do you need that many. The bottom line is you need to build a system that caters to both needs.

If you read what I said its not class A reservists maintain equipment. Its civilian contractors doing it, that they moon light as reservists is a secondary benefit.

 

[McG]

put people through their initial training (probably by way of a community college program on mechanics in general combined with additional military maintenance training on specific military equipment. That way the individual then gets both his civilian and military qualification and also becomes liable to pay the CAF back with some obligatory Class B or A service.

Follow that up with a year or two of full-time Class B so he gains experience and makes money and then keep him on for further obligatory Class A service in a part-time position in a maintenance unit.

You are describing a short initial engagement in the Reg F followed by an obligatory period of Class A. Maybe we make your idea work inside existing structures instead of creating a full-time enrolment plan for the PRes?

If you read what I said its not class A reservists maintain equipment. Its civilian contractors doing it, that they moon light as reservists is a secondary benefit.

Why would the employee of a civilian contractor (normally a contractor is a company and not a dozen individuals) want to join the reserves to do the same job on the same equipment?

 

[markppcli]

Why would the employee of a civilian contractor (normally a contractor is a company and not a dozen individuals) want to join the reserves to do the same job on the same equipment?

The same reason Calian's employees do. Vehicle technicians joins the mikitary, recieves training, decides they want more stability, retires to the reserves, and takes a job at the local reserve equipment depot.

Our existing plan for reserve vehicle technicians is "hope mechanic joins to do their job on the weekend." Im suggesting we contract, or provide jobs through DND, and catch them at the back end instead.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Why would the employee of a civilian contractor (normally a contractor is a company and not a dozen individuals) want to join the reserves to do the same job on the same equipment?

Patriotism.

Just throwin' that out there

 

[PrairieFella]

Patriotism.

Just throwin' that out there

Cant eat patriotism lol.

 

[McG]

The same reason Calian's employees do. Vehicle technicians joins the mikitary, recieves training, decides they want more stability, retires to the reserves, and takes a job at the local reserve equipment depot.

Our existing plan for reserve vehicle technicians is "hope mechanic joins to do their job on the weekend." Im suggesting we contract, or provide jobs through DND, and catch them at the back end instead.

Organizational design built around a hope CoA is probably ill advised.

 

[dapaterson]

Organizational design built around a hope CoA is probably ill advised.

Nine regular force infantry battalions enter the chat.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Nine regular force infantry battalions enter the chat.

 

[FJAG]

You are describing a short initial engagement in the Reg F followed by an obligatory period of Class A. Maybe we make your idea work inside existing structures instead of creating a full-time enrolment plan for the PRes?

I agree in that what amounts to a continuing, full-time position should be RegF. If we ever create classes of RegF service so that a person could join and stay in a defined geographic region that would probably be the best way to go. Unfortunately the CAF doesn't think that way and currently uses Class B positions to bolster strength where needed.

The fundamental problem is that, as @dapaterson says: nine regular force infantry battalions enter the chat. That said, there are aslo a lot more people working in Ottawa than nine infantry battalions - more than twice as many. That to gets in the way of a proper number of full-time maintainers, loggies and sigs.

 

[Blackadder1916]

The same reason Calian's employees do. Vehicle technicians joins the mikitary, recieves training, decides they want more stability, retires to the reserves, and takes a job at the local reserve equipment depot.

Our existing plan for reserve vehicle technicians is "hope mechanic joins to do their job on the weekend." Im suggesting we contract, or provide jobs through DND, and catch them at the back end instead.

Or provide civilian (public service) employment as a mechanic (or other occupations, e.g., clerks and storesmen) that also has a requirement to maintain membership in the Reserve (Class A) as a condition of employment. It, of course, would require tweaking PS employment regs/agreements. Monday to Friday, wrenching turning and box kicking would be a standard civilian (DND) job being paid as a civilian with all the standard PS benefits, though it could follow the example of the US military and permit them to wear uniform during their civvy employment time. On parade nights, weekend or summer training they would show up just like any other Class A.

That's how they do it south of the border with reasonable success, though like all things government or military related, that is sometimes debatable.

https://www.dla.mil/About-DLA/News/News-Article-View/Article/2124319/miltechs-keep-88th-readiness-division-running/

10 U.S. Code § 10216 - Military technicians (dual status)

www.law.cornell.edu

(a) In General.—
(1) For purposes of this section and any other provision of law, a military technician (dual status) is a Federal civilian employee who—
(A) is employed under section 3101 of title 5 or section 709(b) of title 32;
(B) is required as a condition of that employment to maintain membership in the Selected Reserve; and
(C) is assigned to a civilian position as a technician in the organizing, administering, instructing, or training of the Selected Reserve or in the maintenance and repair of supplies or equipment issued to the Selected Reserve or the armed forces.
(2) Military technicians (dual status) shall be authorized and accounted for as a separate category of civilian employees.

 

[McG]

If you make being a CAF member a condition of employment, you can expect a fight with the union and you can expect employees will expect full time CAF pay & benefits wherever that works out to be worth more than PS + PRes pay.

If we want a cheaper Reg F, then lets cut pay and benefits. Let’s not create new have-not tiers of pseudo Reg F who are exploited with a fraction of the pay for equal or greater expectations.