Dress and Deportment

[brihard]

hey!  A mans fantasies are not for public consumption....

Don’t tell me how to live my life.

 

[OldSolduer]

Don’t tell me how to live my life.

Or another way to word it:

You’re not the boss of me!!!

 

[Journeyman]

.... since dueling was removed from the Criminal Code?

Wait. What?  Inigo Montoya is back!  8)

 

[The Bread Guy]

What's with the white boot laces on the Portuguese?

And some French troops?

 

[daftandbarmy]

And some French troops?

Looks like the Legion. Not many Frenchmen in there....

 

[Furniture]

Oh stop it. You make it sound like the army's on an imminent war footing and every spare minute needs to be spent on the range. That's not the case. Ceremonial duties are part of soldiering, just as much as "finalizing claims"(some would say more so!). I served in 2 Commando and one of the things that brought us down was the fact we managed to convince ourselves that we were above "all that leg battalion ashphalt soldier crap." We weren't, and the eventual results demonstrated the fallacy of that kind of hubristic attitude.

We have a still photo showing a group of CAF members standing on parade correctly turned out for the order of dress that they are wearing.

We have not seen their drill movements to know how well executed they are, but because they have different coloured hats, and are wearing beards the assumption is made that they are doing things poorly.

We don't know how long they practiced, and likely won't know because the people in the photo won't come here to get dog piled even if they are forum members.

I'll finish my discussion of time doing drill vs. doing your primary duties by saying that from my experience most people aren't nearly as good at drill as they think they are. A couple of hours every couple of weeks is not sufficient to be good at drill. Passable maybe, but not good. So if we want sharp, well turned out honour guards at each wing/base we need a dedicated group of people for the task. Otherwise every couple of months we will have another thread on here bashing the "slovenly" appearance of the troops and calls for more marching up and down the square.

As a side, how many talented and motivated people are we willing to sacrifice on the altar of better drill? We are struggling to recruit, and retain people as things stand. Marching up and down the square isn't what the kind of smart technical people we need are interested in doing, and if we push for more and more of it, it will likely contribute to driving the troops that can succeed elsewhere to seek work outside the CAF.

 

[daftandbarmy]

As a side, how many talented and motivated people are we willing to sacrifice on the altar of better drill?

Great leadership is needed so that they (we) will sacrifice their (our) lives in some cases, as well as inspiring them (us) to do some drill... and other military stuff that we signed on for.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Actually had one of the RCN non-official facebook groups in mind.

I am member of that group as well.  It can be a very toxic environment.  One must take most the comments with a grain of salt, pun intended. 

A large part of the membership of that group is either CICs or long long long since retired folks with little time in the RCN who just want a place to be senile about how things used to be. 

 

[Furniture]

Great leadership is needed so that they (we) will sacrifice their (our) lives in some cases, as well as inspiring them (us) to do some drill... and other military stuff that we signed on for.

As I clearly laid out in another thread, I am all for the drill and ceremony. (I signed up at 15 years old for 6 weeks of Drill and Ceremonial at Camp Argonaut when I was a Cadet) I'm also realistic about how much time and effort should be spent on it unless it's a primary duty( I think there should be units for the purpose of ceremonies).

I've been or guards, flag parties, etc., and we spent hours practicing, but if I was the one standing one the sidelines I would have been able to pick the drill apart. Not because we didn't practice, and take pride in the drill, but because being "ceremonial guard" good at drill means spending "ceremonial guard" time practicing drill.  That's what people seem to be forgetting when they pick apart pictures and video of clerks, mechanics, cooks, etc. doing drill as best they can given the time and pers restraints we are all working with.

 

[Journeyman]

... who just want a place to be senile ....

Can you confirm which site you're referring to.... 

 

[FSTO]

Can you confirm which site you're referring to.... 

Every chat board on the internet?

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I've been or guards, flag parties, etc., and we spent hours practicing, but if I was the one standing one the sidelines I would have been able to pick the drill apart. Not because we didn't practice, and take pride in the drill, but because being "ceremonial guard" good at drill means spending "ceremonial guard" time practicing drill.  That's what people seem to be forgetting when they pick apart pictures and video of clerks, mechanics, cooks, etc. doing drill as best they can given the time and pers restraints we are all working with.

Based on my time at CG back in the day, I would suggest that it is not the soldiers practicing drill that makes them proficient.  It is the SNCOs who can spot and rectify faults, can sense the whole within the individual parts, and who can identify cohesion when it starts to occur.  We don't create those NCOs anymore.  It may be a chicken / egg type of thing, but it all starts with well trained NCOs, as always.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

As I clearly laid out in another thread, I am all for the drill and ceremony. (I signed up at 15 years old for 6 weeks of Drill and Ceremonial at Camp Argonaut when I was a Cadet) I'm also realistic about how much time and effort should be spent on it unless it's a primary duty( I think there should be units for the purpose of ceremonies).

I've been or guards, flag parties, etc., and we spent hours practicing, but if I was the one standing one the sidelines I would have been able to pick the drill apart. Not because we didn't practice, and take pride in the drill, but because being "ceremonial guard" good at drill means spending "ceremonial guard" time practicing drill.  That's what people seem to be forgetting when they pick apart pictures and video of clerks, mechanics, cooks, etc. doing drill as best they can given the time and pers restraints we are all working with.

I think we've already established that nobody needs to be practicing drill like the ceremonial guard for weeks on end. 

I also think that it was wrong of us to dog pile on the members in the photos as it wasn't their choice to do the parade.

However, they should have been in their dress uniforms for this parade.  It's an Honour Guard and they are dressed inappropriately for the NATO Secretary General and our Head of Government.  It is not time consuming to prepare a dress uniform.  In fact, some places in the CAF still wear them everyday.

 

[Pusser]

I am member of that group as well.  It can be a very toxic environment.  One must take most the comments with a grain of salt, pun intended. 

A large part of the membership of that group is either CICs or long long long since retired folks with little time in the RCN who just want a place to be senile about how things used to be.

That's not an accurate assessment of the membership.  Yes, there are a lot of retired folks on there, but relatively few of them are CIC.  There is also centuries worth of experience, including a number of former Base and Formation CPOs.

 

[Pusser]

It seems like a pretty small group, due to the expense (also, who really wants a sword?).  Aside from a few people I know that picked up one during the centennial, don't know anyone that actually has their own. Or if they do, they don't talk about it. 

Buying a mess kit is about as far as most people are willing to go (and know of a few without one).

Might be fun to make, but unless I have a castle or something where a sword hanging on a wall would be in style seems like a waste of money.

But you know, if you are part of the pearl clutching dinosaur gaits and garters squad, maybe it's gauche and disgraceful not to be able to do some kind of Horatio Hornblower roleplaying on your free time.  :dunno:

Hate these kind of threads in general. No one in the photo was involved in any of the decisions made, but their photo will be endlessly nitpicked and criticized. I'm sure all of them would have rather been doing something other than being a dog and pony show for the PM and NATO SecGen and would have happily gone about doing their jobs instead.

I love my sword.  It's an officer's badge of office and I would love to wear it more often.  If all officers had them, perhaps we would.  When I was first commissioned, my father offered me either a sword or mess dress as a present.  In retrospect, I foolishly chose the mess dress as a more practical gift at the time.  I really should have chosen the sword.  I would have been forced to bite the bullet and buy the mess kit anyway and so would have had both.  As a young single guy, I could have afforded it.  As it was, I made other foolish decisions and had to put off buying the sword until I got married.  I figured if my bride could spend $1000 on a dress, then I could spend $1000 on my outfit!  We used that sword to cut the wedding cake and it must have been a good omen because 26 years later, we're still married.  Unfortunately, I could only afford a cheaper sword at the time and not the Wilkinson I really wanted (the price of gold was through the roof and Wilkinson didn't offer a brass option).  Mine was not gold-plated and the grip was of a cheaper material.  Years later, I still have that sword, but I've been able to have it refurbished so that all the gold bits are actual gold and the grip is proper fish skin.  The mess dress has long since been replaced.

 

[BDTyre]

I'm the first to admit that I am not good at drill. Period. I was most proficient at our centennial/colour presentation and that was the result of nearly 3 months of no weekends (I was on driver wheeled as well) and many Wednesday nights doing nothing but drill.

In fact, I haven't done rifle drill in four, maybe five years so the next time I am in a position to do it, I know I will need the practice.

 

[Infanteer]

"I'd like...two armies: one for display, with lovely guns, tanks, little soldiers, fanfares, staffs, distinguished and doddering generals, and dear little regimental officers...an army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country.

The other would be the real one, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage battledress, who would not be out on display but from whom...all sorts of tricks would be taught.  That's the army in which I should like to fight."

Jean Larteguy, The Centurions

 

[dapaterson]

So, you're saying he'd like The RCR and the PPCLI?

 

[Haggis]

Based on my time at CG back in the day, I would suggest that it is not the soldiers practicing drill that makes them proficient.  It is the SNCOs who can spot and rectify faults, can sense the whole within the individual parts, and who can identify cohesion when it starts to occur.  We don't create those NCOs anymore.  It may be a chicken / egg type of thing, but it all starts with well trained NCOs, as always.

My time at CG as a very young NCO set me up for success later in my career.  "Never pass a fault" is not just an RCR thing.  I carry that mindset into my current LE job.

And, I believe that our NCM PD system has lost sight of the fundamental tenet of leadership - the art of influencing people to complete a task in the manner desired by the leader - to focus on managing "human resources" effectively.

 

[RocketRichard]

Best drill instruction I ever received was as a member of Sunset Platoon at Basic in Cornwallis.  Now an officer I don’t know that drill instruction is given to new officers anymore. Sigh...


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