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drug testing

099* said:
Moment of weakness is eating a big bag of chips and not going to the gym cause your too lazy.Shooting heroin isn't.Yes in my opinion it does make them a piss poor soldier.Lets not cuddle these idiots as the Canadian public pays us a lot of money to uphold norms above the civilian population.

While yes i believe serving members with no previous record of drugs should be tested annually I don't agree with retaining drug users.Call me a stick in the mud.

099, kind of agree with you.

Drugs have no place in the military or any other place.

I do not agree with releasing people who have tested positive for the first time. A persons character is not based on one mistake.

" He who is without sin, cast the first stone." Everyone has done something in the past that they wish they could have done differently.

Allow these people to prove themselves and if DND in their judgement, deems that these soldiers deserve a chance. I am all for it.
 
099* said:
Moment of weakness is eating a big bag of chips and not going to the gym cause your too lazy.Shooting heroin isn't.Yes in my opinion it does make them a piss poor soldier.Lets not cuddle these idiots as the Canadian public pays us a lot of money to uphold norms above the civilian population.
While yes i believe serving members with no previous record of drugs should be tested annually I don't agree with retaining drug users.Call me a stick in the mud.
Doing Heroin, crack, opium, chemicals & the like are definitely personal choices
being with a group of friends where all of a sudden a Joint is going round.... a moment of stupidity / temporary insanity is so easily found.... not saying it's right, but I can fathom
 
geo said:
Doing Heroin, crack, opium, chemicals & the like are definitely personal choices.
Being with a group of friends where all of a sudden a joint is going round.... a moment of stupidity / temporary insanity is so easily found.... not saying it's right, but I can fathom it.

Thats more along the lines of what i was getting at.
 
One of the problems now in Gagetown with the drug testing is some of the people are testing positive, but are not doing drugs, they are testing positive because of prescription drugs, on the shelf drugs, IE- Ibuprofen,Acetaminophen,Neocitran and T3's (which have Codeine).
They are being black marked and have to provide proof, even when they are getting the prescription drugs from the MIR on base, I understand the need to have the tests, but we have to be careful with it !.
                                                                                                :salute:
 
If it's the case that codeine, for example, shows up in your blood, I'm fairly certain that the fact that if prescribed, it would be duly noted.  I, for example, was prescribed some medicine that included codeine some time back following minor surgery.  Had I had to pee in a bottle I am certain that (a) I would tell whomever that I was prescribed said medicine prior to the test and (b) upon positive showing up in my urine, they (the powers that be) would verify my statement.
 
von Garvin said:
If it's the case that codeine, for example, shows up in your blood, I'm fairly certain that the fact that if prescribed, it would be duly noted.  I, for example, was prescribed some medicine that included codeine some time back following minor surgery.  Had I had to pee in a bottle I am certain that (a) I would tell whomever that I was prescribed said medicine prior to the test and (b) upon positive showing up in my urine, they (the powers that be) would verify my statement.
Yes you are right, but some people are having this problem !.  But whould you say to them I had a headack lastnight and took 2 Ex  Advil, now you just tested pos. for pot.
                                                    Sorry spell check not working for me !
 
I doubt that Advil tm would make one test positive for pot, but I'm no chemist, so...
 
von Garvin said:
I doubt that Advil tm would make one test positive for pot, but I'm no chemist, so...
  Yes Advil within 48 Hrs. & Acetaminophen will test pos. for pot !.
             Neocitran for Heroin !
            Sorry about that, not Neocitran but Nyquil !
             
 
did they have to "roll" the Advil?   :p

If so...go back to Shoppers...they gave you the wrong Advil.
 
Mud Recce Man said:
did they have to "roll" the Advil?   :p

If so...go back to Shoppers...they gave you the wrong Advil.
  It's not the Advil, it"s the Ibuprofen, in it.
:D
 
Well, I can't speak for Canadian chemists, but here, all of those "false positive" stories are myths. NeoCitran doesn't equal heroin, poppy seeds don't result in positives, etc. I attended a pretty extensive seminar on employee drug testing that reviewed in a lot of detail all of those issues. When you take a test here, you list on the form any medication that you are currently taken. All test results are reviewed by a physician, and positive results are re-tested before declared positive.
 
  OK, you are right ! you tell that to the people going throught the crap here in Gagetown,
  I'am not trying to start a bun fight, but saying whats going on in Gagetown.
           
 
"Here" to me, is Arizona. As I inferred, I can't speak for what is happening in CFBG.
 
muskrat89 said:
Well, I can't speak for Canadian chemists, but here, all of those "false positive" stories are myths. NeoCitran doesn't equal heroin, poppy seeds don't result in positives, etc. I attended a pretty extensive seminar on employee drug testing that reviewed in a lot of detail all of those issues. When you take a test here, you list on the form any medication that you are currently taken. All test results are reviewed by a physician, and positive results are re-tested before declared positive.
  Yes , thats the way it should be ! But I was in MIR here and a person came in to get copy's of there doc's, to show all the Medications they were thanking for the last 2 years for the CSM.
 
paracowboy said:
Save the "Drugs are bad, mmmkay." stuff for another thread.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.

That cracked me up Paracowboy.  I even heard the voice in my head... ;D
 
muskrat89 said:
Well, I can't speak for Canadian chemists, but here, all of those "false positive" stories are myths. NeoCitran doesn't equal heroin, poppy seeds don't result in positives, etc. I attended a pretty extensive seminar on employee drug testing that reviewed in a lot of detail all of those issues. When you take a test here, you list on the form any medication that you are currently taken. All test results are reviewed by a physician, and positive results are re-tested before declared positive.
 
   




 
Drug Policy:
The ACLU Drug Law Reform Project is a division of the national ACLU. Our goal is to end punitive drug policies that cause the widespread violation of constitutional and human rights, as well as unprecedented levels of incarceration.


 


 






 
Home : Drug Policy : Drug Testing

Drug Testing: An Overview (10/21/2002)

The growth of a drug pseudo-science has opened up a new search frontier for those seeking to expose drug users. As "scientific" rumors of an American work force and an American youth population withered with drug use abound, authorities ranging from employers to school boards have rushed to join in the war on drugs. Their weapon: drug testing.


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Drug Testing Programs are Ineffective and Inaccurate:

Because urine testing is based on an analysis of metabolites associated with the drug in question, and because alcohol and cocaine, heroin and methamphetamine all pass through the body within 24-48 hours, leaving no metabolites, marijuana is the only substance that is easily detected with urinalysis. Drugs that have a more significant impact on employment or work performance, such as alcohol and other illegal drugs, are not effectively tested for with urinalysis.   
Source: "Drug Testing: A Bad Investment," ACLU pamphlet on drug testing in the workforce (hereafter, "Drug Testing," pg. 13, et. al., link provided below.

Moreover, drug tests such as urinalysis can give false positive results, because they test for drug metabolites - inactive drug by-products that the body produces as it processes drugs for excretion - rather than for the presence of the drugs themselves. Poppy seeds notoriously can result in positives tests for morphine. Immunoassay, the less expensive common form of drug testing, often cannot distinguish between illegal drug metabolites and those generated by the consumption of over-the-counter decongestants and antihistamines. And even the more sophisticated, expensive GC/MS urinalysis test can turn up positive test results in response to legal prescription medications like codeine and marinol.   
Source: "Drug Testing," pg. 18, link provided below.

At every step of the process, human error can add to the inaccuracies of drug testing programs.   


For more information about the psuedo-science of drug testing, and especially about its effects in the workplace, read "Drug Testing: A Bad Investment".

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Drug Testing in the Workforce:

Research results indicate that drug use does not pose significant productivity or safety problems in the work force. In 1994, the National Academy of Sciences published results from a three year research effort compiling research resulting from all major studies of drug testing program effectiveness. The report concluded, "the data . . . do not provide clear evidence of the deleterious effects of drugs other than alcohol on safety and other job performance indicators."   
Source: "Drug Testing," from 1994 NAS study "Under the Influence: Drugs and the American Work Force," (hereafter, NAS study) available at above site.

Though frequently inaccurate and ineffective, drug testing is extremely expensive. Texas Intruments reports that their drug testing program costs $100 per employee. Drug testing products and services are a multi-billion dollar industry. But the incidence of drug use in the workforce is very low. The federal government reported in 1990 that only 0.5% of tested employees tested positive. The same year, the government spent $11.7 million on its drug testing program. That works out to $77,000 per identified drug user.   
Source: "Drug Testing," pgs. 4, 14.

The NAS looked for and was unable to find evidence of drug testing programs' deterrent effects. Studies which appear to show a decrease in positive test rates since the implementation of drug testing programs usually don't adjust for the expansion of such programs' testing groups to include not only for-cause drug tests but also suspicionless drug tests. That is, as drug-testing programs have expanded, they have tested more and more people who aren't suspected of drug use, improving their numbers and subjecting thousands of non-users to invasive testing procedures.   
Source: "Drug Testing," pg. 15 from NAS study.

Perhaps the greatest cost of invasive employee drug testing programs is the consequent loss of worker morale.

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Drug Testing in Schools:

Studies of college students have shown that there is little or no difference in the grade point average, career aspiration, or participation in extracurricular activities between students who use marijuana and those who don't.   
Source: "Drug Testing," pg. 12.

Nonetheless, another area where the traditional standard for searches has been relaxed is in the drug testing of school children. In part because of the guardian-like role schools play in the lives of children, the Supreme court has lowered the requirements for searching students (or drug testing them) to reasonable suspicion.   
Source: Case history of this is summarized in Scalia, Vernonia decision, 1995, link provided below.

In 1995, in Vernonia v. Acton, the Supreme Court upheld suspicionless school drug testing of athletes, on the grounds that athletes frequently engage in dangerous activity, and are thus more likely to injure themselves if playing while under the influence of drugs. The Court also stated that as school athletes routinely face mandatory physicals and other similar invasions of privacy, they have lower expectations of privacy than the average student. The Court specified that its decision should not be seen as a justification for further expansion of drug testing programs.   
Source: Scalia, Vernonia v. Acton, 1995, link provided above.

Nonetheless, schools have used this decision to institute broader and broader drug testing policies, some introducing student consent to random drug testing as a requirement for involvement in extra-curricular activities. Some of these policies have since been upheld by lower courts.   


In 1999, a school in Lockney, Texas became the first to implement a universal testing policy of all students, grades six through twelve, regardless of particular suspicion or extra-curricular involvement. This testing policy was later struck down by a federal court.   


The ACLU Drug Policy Litigation Project (DPLP) believes such drug testing policies to be both invasive and counter-productive. Involvement in extra-curricular activities has been shown to be one of the most sure-fire ways to keep kids out of trouble. The project has been involved in two school drug testing cases, in Lockney, Texas, and Tecumseh, Oklahoma.  To find out more about this issue, and to see what the Project is doing to protect students' rights, visit A Test You Can't Study For.


The Drug Policy Alliance has put together an action pack for parents and educators who are opposed to student drug testing. To learn more, please visit www.drugtestingfails.org.



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Drug Testing of Welfare Recipients:

According to a 1996 study by the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, differences between the proportion of welfare and non-welfare recipients using illegal drugs are not statistically significant. There is little justification for singling out a population group that does not display significantly higher drug abuse than the general population.   
Source: National Institutes of Health Press Release, Oct. 24, 1996 (available at above link).

While other states have chosen to test applicants for cash assistance for substance abuse, only Michigan has chosen urinalysis for its method of testing. Other states have specifically rejected urinalysis, finding the test too invasive and also finding that the testing angers the applicant and recipient populations and actually interferes with the ability of the state to work with this population in a beneficial way. By distancing the target population, states are less likely to be able to create effective treatment programs aimed at reducing substance abuse that interferes with employment. If benefits are cut off simultaneously, this population will be severely hurt.   


DPLP has challenged Michigan's drug testing policy on behalf of a group of welfare recipients, arguing that it violates their Fourth Amendment rights to protection from unreasonable searches. To find out more about this case, see Marchwinski v. Michigan. 
The majority of the population has not voted in favor of Fourth Amendment protections since the amendment was added as a requirement for ratifying the Constitution in the 1780s. As Ira Glasser points out in "American Drug Laws: the New Jim Crow," one major reason for this is that a majority of Americans have not felt their Fourth Amendment protected rights threatened since British troops ransacked homes in search of paper after the passing of the Stamp Act before the Revolutionary War. Until recently, the only common (indeed, all too common) victims of unreasonable searches were minorities and criminals. But with the recent serge to the spotlight of drug testing issues, in the work place and in schools, average Americans are at last beginning to feel the bite of invasive search policies.



 



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bilton090 said:
  Yes , thats the way it should be ! But I was in MIR here and a person came in to get copy's of there doc's, to show all the Medications they were thanking for the last 2 years for the CSM.
The CSM has no right to look at any person's medical records.  As far as I know, if a test is done for banned substance, it is done by medical pers.  The results are given to the food chain, er...chain of command.  IF member 'x' has a positive result, and if member 'x' has this result due to the use of prescribed medication, I believe someone else on here said that the docs etc would be reviewed.  THEN the results would be released to the CO (I believe).  For example:
Soldier 'x' tested negative for banned drug use
or
Soldier 'y' tested postive for banned drug use, specifically, 'a' 'b' and a bit of 'c'.


 
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Medications & Substances Causing False Positives
False positive drug test results is a major problem. According to a report by the Los Angeles Times New Service, a study of 161 prescription and over the counter medications showed that 65 of them produced false positive results in the most widely administered urine test. Inaccurate urine drug testing which can report false positive drug test results has been called an "epidemic" by Ronald Siegel, a psychopharmacologist at UCLA. He has said that 'The widespread testing and reliance on tell-tale traces of drugs in the urine is simply a panic reaction invoked because the normal techniques for controlling drug use haven't worked very well. The next epidemic will be testing abuse."

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Substances that cause False Positive Drug Test Results

THC - Substances or Conditions which can cause false positives

Dronabinol (Marinol)
Ibuprofen; (Advil, Nuprin, Motrin, Excedrin IB etc)
Ketoprofen (Orudis KT)
Kidney infection (Kidney disease, diabetes) Liver Disease
Naproxen (Aleve)
Promethazine (Phenergan, Promethegan)
Riboflavin (B2, Hempseed Oil)
Amphetamines - Substances or Conditions which can cause false positives

Ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, propylephedrine, phenylephrine, or desoxyephedrine
(Nyquil, Contact, Sudafed, Allerest, Tavist-D, Dimetapp, etc)
Phenegan-D, Robitussin Cold and Flu, Vicks Nyquil
Over-the-counter diet aids with phenylpropanolamine
(Dexatrim, Accutrim)
Over-the-counter nasal sprays
(Vicks inhaler, Afrin)
Asthma medications
(Marax, Bronkaid tablets, Primatine Tablets)
Prescription medications
(Amfepramone, Cathne, Etafediabe, Morazone, phendimetrazine, phenmetrazine, benzphetamine, fenfluramine, dexfenfluramine,dexdenfluramine,Redux, mephentermine, Mesocarb, methoxyphenamine, phentermine,amineptine, Pholedrine, hydroymethamphetamine, Dexedrine, amifepramone, clobenzorex,fenproyorex, mefenorex, fenelylline, Didrex, dextroamphetamine, methphenidate, Ritalin,pemoline, Cylert, selegiline, Deprenyl, Eldepryl, Famprofazone)
Kidney infection
kidney disease
Liver disease
diabetes
Opiates - Substances or Conditions which can cause false positives

Poppy Seeds
Tylenol with codeine
Most prescription pain medications
Cough suppressants with Dextromethorphan (DXM)
Nyquil
Kidney infection, Kidney Disease
Diabetes, Liver Disease
Ecstacy - Substances or Conditions which can cause false positives

Ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, propylephedrine, phenylephrine, or desoxyephedrine
(Nyquil, Contact, Sudafed, Allerest, Tavist-D, Dimetapp, etc)
Phenegan-D, Robitussin Cold and Flu, Vicks Nyquil
Over-the-counter diet aids with phenylpropanolamine
(Dexatrim, Accutrim)
Over-the-counter nasal sprays
(Vicks inhaler, Afrin)
Asthma medications
(Marax, Bronkaid tablets, Primatine Tablets)
Prescription medications
(Amfepramone, Cathne, Etafediabe, Morazone,phendimetrazine, phenmetrazine, benzphetamine, fenfluramine, dexfenfluramine, dexdenfluramine,Redux, mephentermine, Mesocarb, methoxyphenamine, phentermine, amineptine, Pholedrine, hydroymethamphetamine, Dexedrine, amifepramone, clobenzorex, fenproyorex, mefenorex, fenelylline, Didrex, dextroamphetamine, methphenidate, Ritalin, pemoline, Cylert, selegiline, Deprenyl, Eldepryl, Famprofazone)
Kidney infection
kidney disease
Liver disease
diabetes
Cocaine - Substances or Conditions which can cause false positives

Kidney infection (kidney disease)
Liver infection (liver disease)
Diabetes
Amoxicillin, tonic water


For more information about False Positives in the Workplace and your rights click here



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von Garvin said:
The CSM has no right to look at any person's medical records.  As far as I know, if a test is done for banned substance, it is done by medical pers.  The results are given to the food chain, er...chain of command.  IF member 'x' has a positive result, and if member 'x' has this result due to the use of prescribed medication, I believe someone else on here said that the docs etc would be reviewed.  THEN the results would be released to the CO (I believe).  For example:
Soldier 'x' tested negative for banned drug use
or
Soldier 'y' tested postive for banned drug use, specifically, 'a' 'b' and a bit of 'c'.


YES, you are right, but IT"S  happening !
 
  I said it before the drug testing is good, but lets not go over board on the witch hunts.
 
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