Drug use/drug testing in the CF (merged)

[Gunnar]

In spite of your well-reasoned and thought out response, he didn‘t say he discriminated against them. He said he didn‘t agree.

What that means is, he likely isn‘t going to say "I don‘t want fags in my section, why don‘t you just crawl off an die. I don‘t have to lift my rifle to defend some homo", but is likely to say "I don‘t agree with the practice of homosexuality. I believe it is deviant and wrong. And when some enemy is trying to shoot you in the head, I will pick up my rifle and actively discourage him from that pursuit, because you‘re in the trench with me, and you‘re still one of ours: Canadian".

Sorry if I‘m putting words in your mouth Marauder, but people forget that "discrimination" is merely making a choice...it is active persecution of people for their beliefs and (as far as they don‘t affect you directly) which is wrong. The whole "your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" while continuing to believe that "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

If I don‘t like your haircut, and I tell you, that‘s a sad fact which is likely to offend you, but the price of living in a free society. If I don‘t like your haircut, tell you at every opportunity, make you miserable, deny your promotion based on it, THAT‘S what‘s wrong. (Keeping in mind that this is an example of a spurious dislike, and does not refer to specific military requirements for hair styles).

 

[Gunner]

You know, when I first saw the thread title "Mary Jane", all I could think about was Full Metal Jacket (Mary Jane Rotten Crotch...Pretty Pink Panties).

 

[mattoigta]

Originally posted by Sh0rtbUs:
[qb] Discrimination is bull$h!t. A person is a person. [/qb]

So if a person does the following

Originally posted by combat_medic:
[qb] Boomer; if, during your off time, you choose to look at child pornography, smoke crack, or have sex with underage prostitutes, is that also acceptable? [/qb]

I shouldn‘t discriminate because Hey! Pedophiles and crackheads are people too! Who am I to Judge?

Originally posted by Marauder:
[qb] That doesn‘t mean that you can‘t disagree with that "lifestyle" (that‘s a ******* misnomer if there ever was), nor that you have to praise it.
I know some of you think that appeasing the PC jackboots is the only way to go, but I and most guys I have met in uniform don‘t subscribe to that theory/practice. [/qb]

Marauder has a good point - and it‘s good to see people speak their mind. Everyone‘s so scared of the PC police that people wont say what they want.


And about the whole tolerance thing; just because you TOLERATE something, doesn‘t mean you have to ACCEPT/EMBRACE it.

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

I hope you didnt take what I said the wrong way, i didnt accuse anyone of discriminating. I was just stating my opinion. Personally, I think this comes down to "hate what the person does, but not the person". Im against homo-sexuality, but that doesnt mean Im going to harass them and make their life **** for it, they choose that lifestyle. As for Pedophiles and pervs, I hardly think that runs parallel with discriminating against someone for their sexual orientation. Its a completely different matter altogether.

 

[Jarnhamar]

We throwing PC rules to the wind??

I don‘t think it‘s that we tollerate things. In the military we HAVE to put up with things.

-An officer jacking you up for having dirty boots when you know full well they‘ve never spent a day in the real field.
-A fat sargeant soldier laughing at your platoon running by as they come out of breakfast in the morning. A breakfast you miss because you have to choose between showers and eating.
-A girl private flirting her way out of work and into courses even though theres tons of people with seniority ahead of her.
-a 6 or 7 year corporal who shows up for a tasking and immediatly heads to the medics to get a NO PT chit for the duration of their contract or work.
-Stupid infantry soldiers walking around not only work but the mall talking about how cool it would be to kill someone with a grenade and taking this F-ing trench or that one, how all good soldiers always wear their dog tags.
-Reg force soldier who harps on the reserves stating their not real soldiers when the reg force guy has zero job motivation.
- Trained Reserve soldiders showing up for work or a job knowing next to nothing seemingly being right out of basic and you can‘t fire their ***.
-Civilians being rude and ignorant to you knowing full well if you say anything your *** is in a sling.
-Soldiers who should not be in the military float by because they know the minute anyone looks at them sideways they will scream harassment and doom your carreer.
-NCOs who see an attractive soldier show up in their platoon and immediatly transfer number 2 LMG to number 1 riflemen, right beside them.
-Male officers who pick female soldiers to be their drivers for obvious reasons (Even going so far as to punt the initial male driver)
-Guys who are so large they need special uniforms ordered for them
-People who have more allergies than a hypocondract.
-People showing up on courses not knowing how to wash properly but know exactly how much leave they are allowed and how to get extra bennifits.
-privates who never have any money are are always moping around begging for cash because they arent responsible enough to look after themselves.
-Warrants who are so old school they do things their own way no matter what and never seem to be punished for it. (If its a bad thing)

I don‘t tolerate this stuff , i wade through it crying on the inside because i know theres not a thing i can do about it other wise.

Hope thats not too negitive or NON-PC.

 

[Jungle]

Originally posted by Ghost778:
[qb] I don‘t tolerate this stuff , i wade through it crying on the inside because i know theres not a thing i can do about it other wise.

Hope thats not too negitive or NON-PC. [/qb]

Ghost, there are things we all can do... For one, try to get promoted, then change what you can at your level. But choose your battles; you can‘t win them all !!!
Remember this though: no matter what you decide as a leader, someone will think it is wrong and would have done things differently.

 

[kurokaze]

-An officer jacking you up for having dirty boots when you know full well they‘ve never spent a day in the real field.

*shakes head*...Sign of a bad officer.

 

[GrahamD]

The policy is ZERO tolerance. It is fairly clear what that means. Any comparison between "legal" drugs and "illegal" drugs is moot. The policy is black and white. Booze is tolerated, pot (or whatever) is not.

This is absolutely the most important fact in this discussion. The Canadian Forces have a zero tolerance when it comes to marijuana use, and possesion. Zero means zero, even trace amounts you pick up at a rock concert where everyone is smoking up will get you thrown out of the military if detected. Whether this is seems fair to people who happen to know that most of the propaganda about marijuana is absolutely rediculous does not factor into the military view on the subject one bit, and likely never will.
If getting high is important to you then obviously the military is the wrong career choice for you.

Keeping with the black and white military policy theme I just want to quote something else that seemed to me was being defended by some.

No member in the CF should have anything to do with pot. This country is becoming a little too liberal in it narcotics and same-sex laws. We are becoming Belgium or even worse...the Netherlands. Now that is one scary place. I use to live in Germany, and I remember all of Europe laughed and was disgusted by those two stupid countries, that lost all moral values and ethics. But there is now a conservative uprising in Belgium and Holland, seems that the people are sick of thousands of dopers and criminals on the streets, not mentioning homosexuals. I just hope that Canada doesn‘t have to go through that.

Now at least one of you (Gunnar) seem to think this post is not descriminatory. If you split some hairs, and disect it just right, you may indeed be right. He may not have said anything overtly descrimanitory. However, military policy on this topic does not allow for splitting hairs. He has plainly disagreed with the laws surrounding homosexuality in a public forum. He may not have descriminated against any one induvidual, or harrassed them, but he has just desciminated against every single homosexual in our country. He has made vauge reference that homosexuals should have less rights than other citizens, and what could be more offensive than that? What is that supposed to mean even? They shouldn‘t be allowed to marry (for example)? Why not? Are they less of a person than the rest of us? Because that‘s the insinuation that I took from the comment, as I‘m sure many "PC types" would also, and it would only take 1 to complain. When you attend the interview you have it explained that there is zero tolerance afforded towards induviduals disciminating against other members of the C.A.F.
If he expressed this same sentiment to a homosexual memberof the C.A.F. (or any other member of the Forces, who took offence) it would be sufficient grounds for a discharge.

So same as the marijuana, if being allowed to state homophobic views is your thing, then a career in the Canadian Armed Forces is probably not going to work out for you.

 

[Pikache]

Yes, we, as members of CF should watch what we blab, however, we‘re not just soldiers of Canada. We‘re citizens of Canada too. Means we have same right to express our views.

Being a soldier doesn‘t take away our rights.

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

then where do we draw the line between excercising our right to our own opinions/freedom of speech, and flexing our moral thread by keeping such comments to ourselves? not an easy solution when both options contradict themselves...

Personally, i think we should simply use as much discretion as possible when dealing with such sensitive topics. I have no problem with people stating what they believe, and I agree with FUBAR. But i also think we need to take into consideration, what we‘re saying can and will effect someone else whether it be negative or positive.

Sometimes its best to keep things to yourself when not sure of others reactions, and im still debating amoungst myself whether this would be one of those situations.

 

[Jungle]

Hmmm... As far as I know, we are still a Democracy, so we are free to disagree with laws... and let other people know. There are all kinds of lobbies in this country, fighting for all kinds of reasons... why should this be different ???

 

[koalorka]

Wow, my little comment fueled a momentous debate on morality, ethics, freedom of speech etc. Thats good, becuase does are sensitive subjects. I have also been criticized for openly discriminating homosexuals. That was not intended discrimination, I just stated that i disagree with the gay lifestyle, and I would never offend, persecute or harass an individual for their sexual practice. But I do not tolerate potheads, I believe these people to be irresponsible and would not trust such a person on the field with a loaded C7A1. Zero tolerance - All the way!

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

I agree with you FUBAR, and you could always just click the edit/delete option in your post :warstory:

 

[Jungle]

Originally posted by GrahamD:
[qb] Do you disagree that if this induvidual was to express the statement "This country is becoming a little too liberal in it narcotics and same-sex laws", to a member of the C.A.F. who happened to be homosexual, or who may not be but holds antihomophobic beliefs or sympathies, that they would have grounds to file a complaint?
[/qb]

If this individual was to express the statement "This country is becoming a little too liberal in its immigration laws", would an immigrant have grounds to file a complaint ?
The statement was about the law, not about the individual/ lifestyle.
I should try this though: next time a journalist attacks the Military, I‘ll place a complaint... We‘ll see how far that goes. Maybe it will become illegal to be "Militaryphobic" !!!

 

[kaspacanada]

If people wanted to make pot legal, then it may eventually become legal. As for any drug ()being legal or illegal), I feel stongly, about possible effects upon reliability or job performance.
As many have so eloquently put, I don‘t trust my life to a rip-head. That excludes use of marijuana within times that would affect duty, as well as use of alcohol that affects duty. I do feel that pot has a less detrimental social effect on people than alcohol - can anyone recall instances of pot heads getting stoned and beating the living **** out of their spouses? Yet we hear of alcoholics doing this all the time. Although it is also safe to say that potheads are also more paranoid and that this could lead to irratic and possibly aggressive behaviour in a variety of circumstances. I guess we will never really know. Although, I am sure that alcohol has the same effect as it changes perceptions. However, this does not detract from the simple fact that it is illegal, and as such, it is not appropriate or acceptable for members to use such substances. On the other hand, this statement does not support abuse of legitimate substances such as alcohol, I wouldn‘t trust a drunk beside me either. In fact, I think I would trust a drunk less since the coordination is so much more impaired. (But that too is beside the point) CF policy is clear - ZERO TOLERANCE, and as long as that is the policy, that is the standard by which I judge myself and those around me. That will not change even if it is ‘decriminalized‘ so long as DND policy remains the same.

 

[Gibson]

I only meant to provide a helpful warning. Not open debate on what constitutes harrassment. I do not think anyone has gotten to that point, but I think it can be done if someone is not careful on this forum. If you took the tone or context in jest than I apologize.

 

[GrahamD]

"I should try this though: next time a journalist attacks the Military, I‘ll place a complaint... We‘ll see how far that goes. Maybe it will become illegal to be "Militaryphobic" !!!"

A journalist has nothing to fear from the military jurisdiction. Soldiers do. Being part of the military does take away some freedoms that others "enjoy". Like being openly biggoted, like not being fired because your boss found out you smoke pot, like choosing the clothes you wear to work, the list could go on and on.

For some in our country the trade off isn‘t something they would ever even consider, for others its a choice they make with pride.

I agree with the anti biggot approach the military has taken, as well as the zero tolerance for drugs. It simple and its professional.

The last thing any soldier needs to be worrying about is if his partner is stoned, hung over, a flaming biggot who may harbour such an intense hatered for you that you are scared of him.

 

[dwild40]

My .02 cents and first post as well.
I was in the HF of C 1979 to 83. I did not partake of the herb until after the summer GMT course. within a few short months I became a regular user. Myself and others within the regiment who shall remain nameless.
Back then they didn‘t have things like urine testing but I knew my superiors had their suspicions. I had many close calls but as I look back I believe I had a horse shoe up my ***, because try as they might they could not catch us. While on posting to the RCR I went to Norway and discovered that some had stashes in their DT60 rad detector (worn with dog tags). At the time wish I had thought of it.
FFwd to summer concentration 1982 at CFB Borden. Out in the field practising patrolling or something I had to have a leak and crawled away from my Section about 10 m and did my business. I happened to notice the flaura in the immediate area and realized that "gee these plants look familiar." and decided to change my camo covering. I stuffed it all over my person and webbing. When I crawled back the Plt commander called a section commanders meeting. perfect timing I showed up and Lt .... began his briefing and all the while was staring at me. He finally asked "Wildfong what the **** is that?" I replied I believe it is pot sir it seems to be growing all over the area. He demanded that I take it off and being the smart *** I was I replied that our camo was getting old and that we do have to blend in with our environment sir. He also said that it is ironic that the one time they actually catch me with pot there was really not a **** thing they could do about it. I reluctantly lead him to the plot and of course it was destroyed in short order.
Like I said many close calls but if I could do it all over again I‘d do it sober. You see I finally woke up when I turned 35 and I just stopped smoking it. I haven‘t touched it in many years. But we were all young and foolish once.

Ask about the time while coming down from a mescaline trip I remembered I had volunteered to drive the CO and Coy commenders to Borden for a LMD CO‘s meeting that morning.

 

[Pikache]

You can still find patches at Meaford. One of them was pretty near a biv site.

Interesting to see a former fusilier of old times.

 

[sgtdixon]

Theres Patches growing on base?
Wow i would have never figured this and im serioulsy not being sarcastic...