Duties and Responsibilities of a junior Corporal

[Infanteer]

Here are the magic words: "with CO's recommendation"

In the reserve, no promotion need be a "gimme" unless COs (collectively) permit it to be so.   You can sit around tables and argue about retention, training, authority, missing holes in the printed establishment, etc (and I've certainly done so), but at the end of the day the only gateway to promotion beyond competence that matters is the one in the CO's hand, occasionally with the RSM's hand reinforcing the CO's elbow.

Brad, I am sure we both know that in many cases, especially with promotion to Corporal, the "CO's recommendation" is a rubber stamp.   Considering my old CO barely knew any of his 100 or so militia soldiers and had to ask a SNCO which ones had returned from operational deployment at a welcome back dinner (If you're going to know any of your soldiers, you may as well know the ones standing on the line...) I doubt he could take the time to seriously consider each promotion that came up with no real requirments except for time in.
I think for the most part the CO's recommendation is simply given away if a subordinate commander says "we should promote this guy".   Not that it is a bad thing, because CO's are obviously busy with various other things.   But my concern is what standards (if any) that the junior subordinates are passing up to the CO in order to gain his recommendation.   We had one CO's inspection where the Commanding Officer himself had to jack up some private for moving around while at the position of attention; he then subsequently promoted the lackluster private to Corporal.   I know this is merely a single case, but you can see how the notion of the "gimme" rank has come into being.


Michael, I'd really be interested in that study as well; if anything because to undertake such a study would require gaining an understanding into each Army's organizational culture, which is at the heart of fighting effectiveness.

 

[The_Falcon]

I think it depends on the individual Cpl, whether or not they are merely a glorified Pte or JNCO.  We recently had a whole batch of people promoted to Cpl, some of whom are completely useless, and throw around their rank at the HLDR's and Pte's.  We also have some Cpls who are bang on and exellent leaders.  Myself I don't see myself as a glorified Pte or a JNCO, I just do my job whatever that maybe.  However I have been very clear to people in my unit that for the time being I am not interested at all in any kind of leadership position or course.  I will perform a leadership role if needed, but I would prefer not to have those roles.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The point is that everyone - the COs, the people putting forward promotion recommendations, and the corporals - must collectively act if the rank is to have more importance than it currently appears to.

 

[Sledge Hammer]

Is there a problem with my post? If so come out with it, and dont hide behind your little sarcastic quips.

 

[Spr.Earl]

The duties of a Jnr.r Cp.l is to look after and help those Jnr. people with in his Sec. etc.
End of discussion.
Needs no more explanation.

 

[portcullisguy]

I am with Spr Earl on that one, and my fellow 48th.

A Cpl's job is to be the example and assist the Pte's below him in a sect.  Other than that, it is to do his or her job competently and professionally, whatever the task.  Being the example isn't necessarily a first step in being a JNCO or taking a leadership role.  It's a good, professional method of doing things that all experienced soldiers, whatever their rank, should be doing all the time, anyway.

There are Cpls who are plugs, same as any rank.  A MWO who is a plug has far more effect on far more people below them than a Cpl who is a plug (as an example... I happen to like our MWO, and don't think he is a plug).

But one of the best lessons I've learned is to "stay in your lane".  For me, as a Pte, I don't worry about the plugs above my level.  I just try and do my job and complete the task.  That's my lane.  As a Pte who may become a Cpl in the next year, I see it as my job to improve myself always, increase my competency by learned and going over things I've already learned, and doing what I can to stay sharp.  The Cpl's in my section should be "staying in their lane" as well by helping me and the other Pte's when they can, being the example, and giving me jobs to do that will bring out my best characteristics, or improve those I need to work on.  That's his lane... taking care of Pte's and thereby helping out the sect comd and 2ic in accomplishing their task.

Anything above that I don't even think about.

 

[Pikache]

I don't think this issue has been resolved to my satisfaction, so I'll bump it.

As a corporal and being a sect 2i/c, also having what, 2 and half yrs under my belt, this being a leader thing has been challenging to me. During SG04, I expected that I was going to be maybe in wpns det or rifleman, but I did not know that I was slotted in as section 2i/c in the last min. Caught me completely off guard.
During the ex, I tried to do the job to the best of my ability. Sure, I made mistakes, but I didn't get fired. (Go me)

My point is, because I considered myself an NCO, at least prepared myself in case someone with more wisdom decided to put me in leadership  position. I think having the proper attitude got me through so far through this leadership business without major bumps.

IMO, switching from a follower's mentality to a leader's mentality is hardest thing to switch. Is this not the reason why in the army, we try to develop leadership potential starting from BMQ with course seniors and section seniors? Is not fireteam leader a quasi leadership position? How much initiative can you expect from a soldier who is stuck on follower's mentality compared someone who is willing to have a leader's mentality?

If we tell a corporal to keep his mouth shut because he's just a glorified private and stunt his mentality to develop leadership mentality, how is he suppose to be able to lead if he and his section is tossed into battle and his sect comd and 2i/c get whacked and suddenly he finds himself in charge of the section?

Corporal is historically a leadership rank, an NCO. I say it is a disgrace that we choose to use the rank, but not allow the attitude and responsibiliity that goes with the rank. Might as well have senior private or private first class instead and change master corporal to just corporal.

 

[dutchie]

It sounds like you did just fine considering your lack of experience (2 yrs and your barely promotable to Cpl). This experience might lead to some formal leadership training (PLQ) in your near future.

Corporal is historically a leadership rank, an NCO. I say it is a disgrace that we choose to use the rank, but not allow the attitude and responsibiliity that goes with the rank.

Don't confuse the 'old' Corporal rank and the new one. Todays Master Corporal is the Corporal of WW2 (Leadership rank). Todays Corporal is the Lance Corporal of WW2 (a lower, non-leadership rank).

 

[PPCLI Guy]

You can wear the rank, or you can be it.

I'm with Brad. 

A Cpl is as a Cpl does.

 

[Infanteer]

Don't confuse the 'old' Corporal rank and the new one. Todays Master Corporal is the Corporal of WW2 (Leadership rank). Todays Corporal is the Lance Corporal of WW2 (a lower, non-leadership rank).

Actually, today's Master Corporal is the Lance Corporal of the pre-Unified Army.   A Private could be appointed as a Lance Corporal and be assigned at the most junior NCO position - section 2IC (If you don't believe me go look at the British Army webpage; they still maintain the system we abandoned).

Today's Sergeant is equivelent to the pre-Unified Corporal.   Tradionally, Corporals were the section commanders while Sergeants were Platoon 2ic's and fulfilled NCO staff roles (hence, Staff Sergeant).   Warrant Officers (2 and 1) were Sergeants Major.

I do like this system alot better.   Every Rank requires a increased level of responsibility.   The Corporal rank has its (traditional) dignity restored as a true leadership position.   Junior NCO's (LCpl, Cpl) run the sections while the Senior NCO grades are divided between Platoons and Staff (Sgts) and Sergeants Major (WOs).   Simple and easy to understand.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Good job, Infanteer, saved me from saying it.

Since we talked about this last, I have been moved into Clothing Stores.  Not a bad place for a guy who has published two books on military uniforms.  I must say, I like it.  The WO in charge of stores is also the recruiting NCO and has pretty much given me carte blanche to run the clothing stores.  It's a nice amount of responsibility - keeping track of inventory, kitting anyone who comes in, arranging tailoring, etc. - and a welcome change of pace from my last assignment. 

The point of this is that RHF is quite correct when he talks about switching from the follower to the leader mentality - my WO has placed a lot of trust in me from the getgo and I catch myself hanging back from making decisions, which seems surprising to him, which in turn surprises me! 

 

[pbi]

Most of this discussion has commented on the role of the Cpl in the Army Reserve. I thought I'd add a bit of perspctive from the Regular Army side. I invite CFL or others to correct me as they see fit....

A Cpl is not, TTBOMK (to the best of my knowledge), actually a NCO. However, we may be confusing rank (what you wear) with appointment (what you do). There really isn't any connection: you will be employed in the position the Army needs you to fill. In Regular Inf Bns, (certainly when I was last on Regtl duty) it was not at all uncommon to see Cpls as Sect 2ICs and sometimes as Section Comds. You go with what you've got. Your power can be vested in you by your appointment, regardless of what is on your sleeve/shoulder/chest tab. Whether you are really leader or not has as much to do with what is in your heart as with what is on your arm: some Ptes are red-hot leaders and IMHO our recruit trg should identify and develop leadership potential from Day One.

We also have requirements for promotion to Cpl, based on both time and qualification, and we can also withold the promotion for reasonable grounds, although too often it is granted without much thought. Cheers.

 

[Deleted member 585]

Since we talked about this last, I have been moved into Clothing Stores.  Not a bad place for a guy who has published two books on military uniforms.  I must say, I like it.  The WO in charge of stores is also the recruiting NCO and has pretty much given me carte blanche to run the clothing stores.  It's a nice amount of responsibility - keeping track of inventory, kitting anyone who comes in, arranging tailoring, etc. - and a welcome change of pace from my last assignment.

See if you can order a prosthetic arm with a dorsal mount so as to keep your hands productive at work while you pat yourself on the back.  :dontpanic:

Seriously though, congrats on the new position, Michael.

Cheers.

 

[Northern Touch]

Just becase a Corporal is or isn't in a specifically designated leadership spot doesn't mean they can't contribute or be a leader.
In fact, as a new pte, who do I look to for leadership while im at the regiment?  Obviously Mcpl and Sgts but the guys I see most and hang around with most are the Cpl in the unit.  They are basically the ones who are setting teh standards for me and showing me the rops.  things to do and things not to do.

I think there is no problem what so ever with a Corporal taking on a leadership role.  On ex's ive had Cpls as 2i/c's and even a Sec. Cmd. and they've done a great job which sets an example to us young privates.  No matter what, there will always be privates who will look to Corporals and see the guys they can relate to most.  Corporals arn't the guys I really answer to in a leadership position, but they are the ones can put me back in place, or encourage young Pte's because obviously, they are in muhc more contact with them then a Mcpl or a Sgt.

Take FIBUA for example.  Your Sec. Cmd, as well as the PLt. Comdr and Plt 2i/c can die just as fast as any private.  What happens after that?  It becomes a Corporals battle most often.  You NEED people taking leadership roles to keep an advance going and often times itll be Corporals who step into that role.  So although they may no have all the leadership qualifications, I think they should still be setting an example for the younger guys and be able and capable to step up the the leadership position when needed.

 

[pbi]

Northern Touch;

Take FIBUA for example.  Your Sec. Cmd, as well as the PLt. Comdr and Plt 2i/c can die just as fast as any private.  What happens after that?  It becomes a Corporals battle most often.  You NEED people taking leadership roles to keep an advance going and often times itll be Corporals who step into that role.  So although they may no have all the leadership qualifications, I think they should still be setting an example for the younger guys and be able and capable to step up the the leadership position when needed.

That's it in a nutshell. After four officer casualties an NCO will be leading the Coy. After two NCO casualties a Pte will be leading the section.Thie first time I watched a Rifle Coy attack a defended position using MILES was when this was really brought home to me. Cheers.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"Thie first time I watched a Rifle Coy attack a defended position using MILES was when this was really brought home to me." 
We need more of that.

 

[dutchie]

Re: Lance Cpl/Master Cpl - thanks for the clarification Infanteer. I knew how the ranks changed, I was obviously off on how the responsibilities changed....makes things a little more clear.

The other thing that has come to me throughout this thread is the difference between the mechanical/technical aspects of Jr. Leadership (Cpl/MCpl) and the intangible aspects. For clarity, lets use the example of the Section Attack.

As a Section Cmdr, one must give certain commands at certain times ('GRIT', Team/Group/Section movement, identify assault team, etc), while following Battle Procedure. That, in theory, does not require one shred of Leadership Skills. In fact, one could argue it does not require any Soldier Skills. This is taught (but not learned) in a classroom/parade square. The other, more important aspect of leadership in my example requires the experience to:
-have a deeper understanding of the actual objective and it's risks.
-predict the affects of the sections actions and the enemy's response
-know the individual strengths/weaknesses of the individual section members/weapons as they relate to this particular objective.
-have enough confidence in one's own abilities to allow instantaneous situation assessment/decision/command/implementation/confirmation, all with aggression.
-predict what must happen well before the decision is made (ie - I will reorg + 10m to make use of that cover there, but make that preliminary assessment during the assault phase)

In a nushell, a MCpl without the above abilities would utterly fail, whereas a Private with the above abilities would likely suceed given the opportunity. A true Leader will posses these characteristics, regardless of rank. He will be an example to others and he will be looked to for ideas and opinions by his peers and his superiors. His promotion to MCpl (or appointment to Section Cmdr/2IC) would be viewed as 'overdue' or 'just a formality'......basically, the leader 'fakes it till he makes it'.

Thoughts?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

His promotion to MCpl (or appointment to Section Cmdr/2IC) would be viewed as 'overdue' or 'just a formality'

Just to pick the flyshit from the pepper - I like that you distinguish between promotions and appointments (some don't recognize the distinction), however, to be annoyingly technical, Mr. Picky will point out that Master Corporal is not a rank.  It is also an appointment, so one is never "promoted" to Master Corporal.

Unless they have finally changed this in recent years?  The last pay tables I saw still had Pte, Cpl (A), Cpl (B), Sgt...

 

[dutchie]

Master Corporal is not a rank.   It is also an appointment, so one is never "promoted" to Master Corporal.

Touche, mon frere. This is why a MCpl busted down one substantive rank goes down to Private, and a Sgt busted down one substantive rank goes to Cpl.

 

[foerestedwarrior]

I know in my regiment we were only promoting to Cpl. if you had 2 years, CO's reco. AND a QL4. Brigade told us(so i heard) that we had too many eligable Cpl's, so start promotin, wev got a bunch of CPl's that are no diiferent except for a cheveron and $20/day from before. I know I had 2 QL4's before i got promoted, but i have been pushed pretty fast, i am on PLQ with 2 QL4s in just over 2 years.

The best thing i found that my unit has done for me because i asked was I got attached to our training coy. It is a seperate entity from the coy. We have our own OC and crap, it is for anyone either not SQ or BMQ qualified, we go over all the basic skills and I have started to help and actually teach, i have to teach my first lesson on my PLQ in 1 week, but i already have taught under supervision of 2 MCpls. So i have already been corrected and crap.

I think that Cpl's are way more than a glorified Pte, just not many of us act that way, if i am told to get peopel to do something, i delgate, not say guys who wants to help me set up these chairs. Its how I think stuff should be done, but unfortunatly its not.