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Election 2015

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Kilo, I am going to pass on a word of advice from Col Dave Grossman: do some deep breathing and get a grip on your emotions.

Second, look again at your post. You specifically called the remains of the Wheat Board (and by implication everything else owned by the State) as "our" assets, so accusing me of going theoretical is a bit disingenuous, to say the least.

Thirdly, Kirkhill answered the question of economics before I did in a very clear and succinct manner.

Finally, the question still stands: what is your solution?
 
Kilo_302 said:
A poor grasp of economics? As someone who seems to be praising the selling of Canadian assets to state-owned foreign interests I would suggest it's you who has a very poor grasp of economics, the actors involved here, and the motiviation behind these ludicrous policies. The amazing thing about this government is at every level they claim an ideological purity (free markets , ISIS is an existential threat, we need to protect Ukraine from evil Russians, the list goes on), and upon elementary examination every policy is undercut by another that achieves the exact opposite. So you have us selling state assets to a country that funds the very people we are fighting in Iraq and Syria. Forget about economic theory, this is INSANE. If you want to contort yourself like a yoga teacher to have all of this fit into your very fragile ideological box, go ahead. But it holds zero water in a real world.

And going theoretical is a clear sign that you are unable to address any of my real world examples. Yes, it is true that when a government owns an asset "we" as in Canadian citizens do not technically own it. This is so obvious I am unsure as to why we are even discussing it.

However, when a government "owns" an asset, and receives revenue based on the ownership of that asset, this is a benefit to the citizenry as the government then uses that money to pay for services, invest in the economy or dare I say it, military spending?. Again, Statoil is a perfect example of a sensible nationalization policy that has paid out billions into a soveriegn wealth fund. The Norwegian government is reinvesting that money wisely and it shows in Norway's quality of life, the future propects of diversification of their economy and so on and so on. Yes, there are numerous examples of government corruption, but there are far more examples of privatization leading to higher costs, lower efficiency, because the benefits are going to corporate leadership and stockholders.

- Distasteful though it may sound, I do not see ISIS as a threat to Canada on this side of the pond. In fact, I think over the next few decades the changes and counter changes brought about by ISIS may serve Canadian long term (50 - 100 years) interests. For now, we should let them be.

- Norway is a country and a nation. Since separating from Sweden in 1905, they have remained a largely close-knit society. Canada could not hope to accomplish such a feat, held together as it is through the economic bribery of regions to each other.

- The new NATO is unworkable. It should never have moved east of the Oder. Why die for Danzig?

- The old Canadian Wheat Board was de-facto the Western Canadian Wheat Board: If you grew wheat in Ontario or Quebec, you could sell your wheat anywhere you bloody liked. If you did that west of Lake of The Woods, you went to jail. Could you imagine a reverse of that system? Where we could do something in western Canada that would get Quebeckers and Ontarians thrown in jail? No. Neither could western farmers. We still can use A wheat board. We just don't need to force farmers to use it or end up under the jackboots of the Eastern Army of Occupation (the RCMP).
 
TCBF said:
- Norway is a country and a nation. Since separating from Sweden in 1905, they have remained a largely close-knit society. Canada could not hope to accomplish such a feat, held together as it is through the economic bribery of regions to each other.

Don't forget that Norway also has a population of about 5 million, or just less than the GTA. 
 
- My point still holds: GTA lacks the cultural unity that Norway has. Those Vikings have been there for over a thousand years. There are 'hoods in the GTA where you can hardly find a person who thinks themselves a Canadian first. We are a passport of convenience.
 
Try this grasp of economics:

1) Sale of Wheat Board in exchange for $250 M (2015 dollars) (Conservative Party).

2) Cancellation of helicopter contract with $478 M (1993 dollars) penalty in exchange for nothing (Liberal Party).

We're still ahead with the Conservative Party in charge.

Some of us pure and simple pylons are not single-issue voters.
 
TCBF said:
- My point still holds: GTA lacks the cultural unity that Norway has. Those Vikings have been there for over a thousand years. There are 'hoods in the GTA where you can hardly find a person who thinks themselves a Canadian first. We are a passport of convenience.

This guy, Anders Breivik, exemplifies Norwegian cultural unity. He unified the 77 people he killed from the threat of multi-culturalism. I'm sure that you'll just say that he's the exception, not the rule, but Norway/Sweden/Denmark have growing levels of racism and xenophobia due to the rising levels of foreigners moving to those nations.

There is also the reality that the small scandinavian countries benefit greatly from the US paying for their collective defence freeing up money (and taxing like crazy) to fund social programs. Canada could go to a socialist model like that but we would have to accept that we would forever have the same level of international influence (ie- none) as those nations and no ability to push our nice little social programs that we're so proud of.
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
This guy, Anders Breivik, exemplifies Norwegian cultural unity. He unified the 77 people he killed from the threat of multi-culturalism. I'm sure that you'll just say that he's the exception, not the rule, but Norway/Sweden/Denmark have growing levels of racism and xenophobia due to the rising levels of foreigners moving to those nations.

There is also the reality that the small scandinavian countries benefit greatly from the US paying for their collective defence freeing up money (and taxing like crazy) to fund social programs. Canada could go to a socialist model like that but we would have to accept that we would forever have the same level of international influence (ie- none) as those nations and no ability to push our nice little social programs that we're so proud of.

Norway spends more of its GDP on defence than any country in Europe. Its military is the same size as ours. Sweden and Finland have bigger militaries. Their insignificance has to do with geography and population size (kind of like us, only even smaller).
 
... and now that we've completely gone down a rabbit hole, let's leave Scandinavian politics and return to Canadian elections.
 
MCG said:
... and now that we've completely gone down a rabbit hole, let's leave Scandinavian politics and return to Canadian elections.

You'd make one hell of an Adj. - Miseriguts.  ;D
 
Kernewek said:
Norway spends more of its GDP on defence than any country in Europe. Its military is the same size as ours. Sweden and Finland have bigger militaries. Their insignificance has to do with geography and population size (kind of like us, only even smaller).

Norway has an active force of 23,000 men were as Canada has an active force of approx. 92,000. Norway has one each Infantry, Armoured and Artillery Battalion.....The same size as us......not quite.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=norway

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=canada



Cheers
Larry
 
Leaving Scandinavia, if we may, here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Ottawa Citizen, is an interesting look at what M. Trudeau did when he disavowed a coalition:

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/in-coalition-chicken-trudeau-throws-away-his-steering-wheel
crop_20562474919.jpg

In coalition chicken, Trudeau throws away his steering wheel

Peter Loewen

Published on: April 17, 2015

Chicken is one of game theory’s clever metaphors. In this story, two cars are hurtling toward one another. The game is one of nerves, so the driver who swerves is the loser, while the driver who continues straight is the winner. If neither car swerves the worst outcome is realized. What’s the best way to win this game? To make a show of throwing your steering wheel out the window. Once your opponent knows you have no way of swerving, it will be left to him to turn away.

When Justin Trudeau declared he could form no coalition with Mr. Mulcair, he threw away his steering wheel.

Trudeau came to this announcement in his typical fashion. He mused and meandered in response to a hypothetical question. He then clarified the next day, while reminding himself aloud not to respond to hypothetical questions. (An observation: when you are in opposition, every question about what you will do in government is hypothetical. Surely, some deserve answering).

Even if Trudeau came to his answer awkwardly, we should still recognize the boldness of his move. It represents a major gamble. If the Liberals can regain second place, this move will reap rewards. But if they remain in third, the losses are substantial.

Trudeau’s pledge to eschew a coalition does not matter much at all if Stephen Harper wins a majority government. Likewise, it does not matter much if Trudeau wins a plurality of seats, especially given the (conventionally incorrect) assertions of both Harper and Mulcair that the party with the most seats gets the first crack at forming a government. Should Trudeau come out on top in the next election, I imagine he will be asked to form a government. Even with a minority, he will find a way to govern while the other two parties replace their leaders.

But what if Harper is able to win a plurality but not majority of seats? The effect of Trudeau’s promise will depend on whether he finishes ahead or behind the NDP. Should the NDP remain second in the seat count, Trudeau’s promise could prove very costly. In this scenario, Mulcair can swiftly extend an invitation to Trudeau to join a progressive coalition and replace the Prime Minister. Trudeau will be in a bind, either because he would break his word by entering a coalition or because he would be identified clearly as the reason Stephen Harper remains Prime Minister. This is a fine way to continue the decline of the Liberal Party.

On the other hand, he could help Mulcair topple the government and then allow him to form a single-party minority government. Trudeau would be keeping his word, but he would also be ushering in the first national NDP government. This too is a fine way to hasten the demise of the Liberals.

What if the Liberals finish in second place? Here there is both upside and downside for Trudeau. The Liberals could quickly replace the government by forming a coalition with the New Democrats, but in doing so Trudeau would both break his word and give the NDP a chance to govern in at least some key portfolios. More importantly, if Harper’s strategy from the 2008 coalition crisis were replayed, this would invite a major political crisis. Coalitions are constitutionally legitimate, of course, but the democratic legitimacy of a coalition that was repeatedly foresworn off by its chief principal would be absent. This is the downside of Trudeau’s position.

But imagine that Trudeau were to go another route. He could quickly and decisively indicate that under no circumstances would he support the government. He would then invite the NDP to prop up a Tory government. As soon as they cease doing this, confidence in Harper’s government would disappear. Provided this happened quickly enough, the Governor General would be likely to invite Trudeau to form a government on his own. He could then offer progressive compromises to the NDP. Should they refuse his offers and defeat his government, they would have to explain their lack of support in the next election. In essence, Trudeau would force Thomas Mulcair to swerve.

The electoral consequences of this strategy are also worth noting. The last election revealed just how many Canadians would be willing to vote for the New Democrats if they believed they had a chance of winning. Trudeau needs to hope that those voters are once again willing to vote strategically for his party, following their heads and not their hearts. He can remind them during the campaign that they cannot expect a coalition between his party and Mulcair’s, and so they should plump with him. But what if an NDP resurgence recurs, and Mulcair pulls into second place? Then he can remind voters that Trudeau wants no part of a coalition, and only by voting for the NDP will they get New Democrats in government.

In short, Trudeau is gambling that his party will come in at least second place. If they do not, the costs of this move will be substantial.

Peter Loewen is an assistant professor in the department of political science at the University of Toronto, Mississauga.


I agree with Prof Loewen that M. Trudeau must campaign very, very hard for strategic votes, convincing those who really want to vote NDP that they need to vote Liberal in order to unseat the Conservatives.

I still think he has a steep climb to unseat M. Mulcair as opposition leader and a real mountain of a task to pass both the NDP and the CPC and form a government.
 
Trudeau needs to hope that those voters are once again willing to vote strategically for his party, following their heads and not their hearts

I expect people with the same head as Trudeau will vote for him. Scary. But look at the mess in Ontario, the province that is a glutton for punishment or some other word that starts with s which describes the Liberal voters.
 
Rifleman62 said:
I expect people with the same head as Trudeau will vote for him. Scary. But look at the mess in Ontario, the province that is a glutton for punishment or some other word that starts with s which describes the Liberal voters.

Let's just get one thing straight before we go any further; it was the people in the 'Center of Stupid', in Area Codes 416, 647, and 437, who brought back the Liberals. 
 
George Wallace said:
Let's just get one thing straight before we go any further; it was the people in the 'Center of Stupid', in Area Codes 416, 647, and 437, who brought back the Liberals.

I've been away a few years, but where are 437 and 647?
 
Wow. 

<tangent> I wonder how Australia manages to get away with having only state (and one mobile) code then.  For example:

04 = Mobile - AKA you never have to change your mobile if being posted (which is a brilliant idea)
02 = NSW and ACT
03 = VIC
07 = QLD

Phone numbers have a total of 10 digits (except that some businesses get away with 6 for some reason which I could never understand), so it's not like there are more digits compared to North America  ???

</tangent>
 
Larry Strong said:
Norway has an active force of 23,000 men were as Canada has an active force of approx. 92,000. Norway has one each Infantry, Armoured and Artillery Battalion.....The same size as us......not quite.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=norway

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=canada

Cheers
Larry

The Canadian military figures are utterly spurious, so I'd take anything on that site with a large, large, large grain of salt.
 
dapaterson said:
The Canadian military figures are utterly spurious, so I'd take anything on that site with a large, large, large grain of salt.

Nit pick all you want, the bottom line is we have more than 20K under arms in the regular force, and that was my point.......


K, 68K, better than 3 times greater

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-reports-pubs-report-plan-priorities/2015-endnotes.page

As Norway only ahs 16K reg force

http://mil.no/organisation/personnel/Pages/personnel.aspx



Cheers
Larry
 
Larry Strong said:
Nit pick all you want, the bottom line is we have more than 20K under arms in the regular force, and that was my point.......

Cheers
Larry

Yes; and they are spread all across the country (with the ability to vote in any location they have declared as their Riding).  As a block that would influence any election; it would be safe to say that it would never happen. 
 
George Wallace said:
Yes; and they are spread all across the country (with the ability to vote in any location they have declared as their Riding).  As a block that would influence any election; it would be safe to say that it would never happen.

Must have missed something....your point is?


Cheers
Larry
 
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