Employment Equity in the CAF ( merged )

[CivU]

"Btw: I am generally unimpressed by quotes even from scholarly articles.  Present me with the arguments and present me with facts.  Obviously you've read, understood, and agreed with these arguments.  So argue them.  Don't just give other people's conclusions."

It's interesting how you place the onus on someone else to prove your own hypothetical...last time I checked, that's not how an argument was presented.

â Å“findings of this study on the effect of racial discrimination are far from definitive.â ?

Of course this is the case.  Sampling can only be drawn at a certain time to reflect a particular sample population.  At what point would research be deemed definitive?  Research is still done speculating on the causes of world events dating thousands of years ago...

One quote stated, "The authors found that, compared to native-born Canadians, immigrants were consistently over-represented among the poor, and that this over-representation had a clear ethnic and racial colour with visible minority immigrants experiencing the most severe conditions."

If their experiencing the most severe conditions, then would it be easier for them to escape these conditions compared to native born Canadians (who I understand could also be visible minorities) who are not as represented in the most impoverished...

"do not state that this advantage is unlinked from those minorities traditionally starting from lower economic classes"

Why are those minorities traditionally starting from lower economic classes...?

I have presented scholarly data, you have presented little more than a weak rebuttal that overlooked an attempt at offering access (through the citations provided, which you clearly did not have the time to look further into) to material by asking me to, "Present me with the arguments and present me with facts".  I suggest you read the data provided at length and you will find both the arguments and the facts.  Furthermore, other people's conclusions are the basis for substantiating your own argumentative stance.  Without support any argument lacks merit, which brings me to my question, why don't you offer some literature supporting your claims that it is equally hard for lower class persons who are not visible minorities to rise up...

Infanteer: How did the Charter exonerate persons from accepting responsibility for their actions. In the case of Japanese-Canadians interned in Canada during the Second World War, there has been little done in the way of reciprocity, are you suggesting the Charter alleviates a need for that?

 

[McG]

McG

"Economic Affirmative Action"

We call that Welfare, don't we?

"Social Safety Net"
""Welfare"
"Workfare"
"Canadian Millennium Fund"

yeah, it's out there now under a lot of names.

 

[Infanteer]

These are merely a selection of brief synopsis' from various scholarly sources....

I'm reading your excerpts and the only thing that really comes to my mind is

"no shit".

I don't think an academic journal article is required to tell me that immigrants are usually the poorest people in society.  Are you expecting us to roll out the red carpet for them or something?  My Grandfather moved here from Europe and he didn't need "Intervention to breakdown barriers that were set up through a cycle of repression and subjugation" or however you termed it - he worked his ass off.

As well, I would challenge the assumption of a constantly poor group of immigrants.  That statistic is like the one that states that 40,000,000 Americans are without Health Care.  Sure, there are 40,000,000 without health care, but that is a number that is constantly in flux.  People get uninsured, people get insured.  Kids leave there parants coverage, kids get a job and get covered.  Same with the immigrant population.  People come to Canada and have to make their way up the social economic scale.  However, to imply that there is this seething mass of poor people who've never been given a chance to prove themselves in Canada seems a little far-fetched.

Many groups of families who immigrated here in the earlier 20th century (Many Indian and Chinese families I know come to mind) live quite comfortably and have grandchildren who are going to University to become Doctors and Lawyers.  Like any other immigrant, it takes time for them to resocialize and earn their success, but Canada is proof that people do it all the time.

 

[NavyGrunt]

I dont see  how putting weak candidates in positions where they are not the BEST candidate helps out anyone. thats the argument. Justify that. If a bad candidate gets a good job because he's "purple" we might as well call him the "prince of space" and give him a sceptre. They both mean the same thing. Except when we give him a position he didnt earn he can royally screw things up.....unlikle when he waives his "space sceptre" in a parade.....

 

[CivU]

Infanteer, you left out the crux of the Lancet article from the Economist that stated, "The centre of its estimated range of death tollsâ ”the most probable number according to the data collected and the statistics usedâ ”is almost 100,000."

As far as "this seething mass of poor people", why don't you read the journal articles.  If you provide me something you took time to find, I would read it.  You have not, it doesn't give your argument much support without corroborating sources.

And to suggest the labour market in Canada when your grandfather arrived is comparable to today's conditions is narrow minded to say the least.  Today's economic conditions are drastically different than a generation ago, yet alone several.

 

[Infanteer]

Infanteer: How did the Charter exonerate persons from accepting responsibility for their actions. In the case of Japanese-Canadians interned in Canada during the Second World War, there has been little done in the way of reciprocity, are you suggesting the Charter alleviates a need for that?

You sure get your wires crossed easily, don't you.  Follow the argument.

You stated that we need to "consider how we can change our behaviour in the present so as to not reflect a lack of concern, or an inevitability of repeating themselves".  

I stated that an entrenchment of political equality, the Charter, was that consideration.  I don't know where Japanese internment comes into play....

 

[CivU]

Japanese internment seemed a relevant historic example for the issue of not accepting recent lapses in morality that remain to be given due restitution.  Only in 1988 did Brian Mulroney offer an apology:

"I know that I speak for Members on all sides of the House today in offering to Japanese Canadians the formal and sincere apology of this Parliament for those past injustices against them, against their families, against their heritage, and our solemn commitment and undertaking to Canadians of every origin that such violations will never again in this country be countenanced or repeated." â “ Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, House of Commons, September 22, 1988."

It is widely acknowledged that the treatment of Japanese Canadians in Canada was worse than the treatment of Japanese in the United States at the same time...

 

[Infanteer]

Infanteer, you left out the crux of the Lancet article from the Economist that stated, "The centre of its estimated range of death tollsâ ”the most probable number according to the data collected and the statistics usedâ ”is almost 100,000."

I said take the figure with a grain of salt with a grain of salt.   90% for 40,000 and almost certain at 100,000 means a lot of room for error.

As far as "this seething mass of poor people", why don't you read the journal articles.  If you provide me something you took time to find, I would read it.  You have not, it doesn't give your argument much support without corroborating sources.

Well, to be honest, I have better things to do then to read sociology journals to tell me "immigrants are poor" due to the fact that it really is a no-brainer.  However, I can walk outside and tell you that:

A) Canadians do not "oppress" each other.

B) Immigrants are not "exploited and subjugated".

C) Canada is not an enduring hegemony of the White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

And to suggest the labour market in Canada when your grandfather arrived is comparable to today's conditions is narrow minded to say the least.  Today's economic conditions are drastically different than a generation ago, yet alone several.

I don't know what things are like in Kingston, but from where I'm standing, people are doing the same thing they were doing a generation ago.  Things don't change much in a resource based economy.

Anyways, that's besides the point.  What are you trying to tell me, that there is no more entry level jobs for people to start at?

It is widely acknowledged that the treatment of Japanese Canadians in Canada was worse than the treatment of Japanese in the United States at the same time...

It is also widely acknowledged that the brutality of the Japanese was on par with Nazi atrocites.   Should we still hound them about that - do you want them to come and build a road for us or something?

Total War is a bitch, accept it and move on.

 

[McG]

It's interesting how you place the onus on someone else to prove your own hypothetical...last time I checked, that's not how an argument was presented.

I could say that of you.  You have claimed that minorities are systemically held to their social class and need special doors opened only for them if they are to get out of that situation.  The general proof of this is that more minorities live in the lower social classes.  I've called BS on these claims you have made and you have not proven your claims.  

We have checks in place that ensure everyone is treated equally.  Prove that we (as a society) are violating or own rules on a scale that would systemically repress minority advancement in the social classes.

You have identified that a disproportionate number of minorities are in lower social classes and that they are remaining in those classes because of their ethnic/cultural/other status.  Prove it (and to prove that the stagnation is systemic & due to minority status, you would have to be able to show that non-minorities are not experiencing this same stagnation).

One quote stated, "The authors found that, compared to native-born Canadians, immigrants were consistently over-represented among the poor, and that this over-representation had a clear ethnic and racial colour with visible minority immigrants experiencing the most severe conditions."

If their experiencing the most severe conditions, then would it be easier for them to escape these conditions compared to native born Canadians (who I understand could also be visible minorities) who are not as represented in the most impoverished...

Immigrants do not provide a good litmus test of Canadian born citizens' opportunities & barriers.  You would not be able to look at them to model movements through Canadian social classes.

Furthermore, other people's conclusions are the basis for substantiating your own argumentative stance.  

Funny thing about scholarly works, they never just quote other works.  They also summarize arguments and facts that allow conclusions to be drawn.  They state the nature of studies done.  Funny thing about undergrad assignments, they would get a Fail if they did not provide more than quotes.

So, to summarize:

1) It is you who has not proven an argument.

2) You made one long post full of quotes that, while not hurting your case, added no value to your arguments.

 

[CivU]

McG, I provided the articles and offered to provide more once you exhausted those...your responses are frank but dont offer any insight into the situation you are trying to address.  I don't understand how you entertain discourse with persons, is it merely a "Prove it...I said prove it...I said prove it" knee jerk reaction as they offer you something to read, consider and evaluate for yourself...

"Funny thing about scholarly works, they never just quote other works.  They also summarize arguments and facts that allow conclusions to be drawn.  They state the nature of studies done.  Funny thing about undergrad assignments, they would get a Fail if they did not provide more than quotes."

It seems your relating scholarly works to undergrad works? All I can state to this effect is that yes, undergrad assignments do require you to provide more than quotes, in fact, they are basically a summary of others works to come to a conclusion determined by and argued by the student in regards to the topic at hand.


Infanteer, I think your oversimplifying a complicated issue by simply using an example of, "I can walk outside and tell you that."

As for entry level jobs, much of the research done shows that many immigrants remain in those positions depsite being qualified in many professional fields.  In BC there is presently a movement afoot for Canadian trained doctors to apprentice foreign trained doctors, as there are many who are not employed despite being qualified and Canada having a lack of physicians.

As far as Japanese internment, I was referring to Japanese Canadians in Canada who were interned, while at the same time Italian or German Canadians were not interned.  Not only is Total War a horrid thing, but so too was the paralleling Race War of WWII's Pacific Campaign.

If you want to read more about it, I suggest:
Race War!: White Surpremacy and the Japanese Attack on the British
by Gerald Horne (Author)
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0814736408/qid=1100752717/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/702-3345160-1008840

 

[McG]

your responses are frank but dont offer any insight into the situation you are trying to address.

Neither do yours.

I don't understand how you entertain discourse with persons, is it merely a "Prove it...I said prove it...I said prove it" knee jerk reaction as they offer you something to read, consider and evaluate for yourself...

It is as per your observation that one prove one's own arguments.   I found some big gaps in your arguments and you don't want to close them.   Why is that?

It seems your relating scholarly works to undergrad works?

Not exactly.   I'm saying that your use of quotes did nothing to benefit your argument.   An 2nd yr poli sci could have argued better with or without quotes.

 

[CivU]

As far as relating my use of quotes to a particular undergad program or year, the comparison seems irrelevant.  I'm not writing an essay here, I'm discussing something informally on a website...

If you don't see it fit to use quotes, or refer to larger works which I suggested reading as they cover many aspects of the present conditions of minorities in the labour market, then I'm not sure how to support an argument.  Without referring to something concrete your just speculating, that may work on a web site but not in the real world...

As for my discussion being devoid of insight, I guess thats a matter of opinon.  Providing sources, quotes and referring to instances, whether other persons agree with their representativeness or not, seems to be more of a contribution than you have made...

 

[Infanteer]

Infanteer, I think your oversimplifying a complicated issue by simply using an example of, "I can walk outside and tell you that."

And I think you're overcomplicating things by assuming that everyone who's poor will never achieve social mobility without discriminatory measures being emplaced.

As well, you're overcomplicating things by assuming that because immigrants are poor, they are oppressed and need a foot in the door.

As for entry level jobs, much of the research done shows that many immigrants remain in those positions depsite being qualified in many professional fields. In BC there is presently a movement afoot for Canadian trained doctors to apprentice foreign trained doctors, as there are many who are not employed despite being qualified and Canada having a lack of physicians.

Many of these are legitimate cases.  Canada has stringent standards for professions for a reason, and we cannot assume that foreign training will meet Canadian requirements.  Anyways, there is nothing wrong with programs to upgrade the training of immigrants.

Now, are these doctors and engineers eternally damned to a life of poverty and driving taxis?  Look at a university campus in Canada - probably not.

As far as Japanese internment, I was referring to Japanese Canadians in Canada who were interned, while at the same time Italian or German Canadians were not interned.

Yup.  So we're racists; as I said in another thread, inclusive fitness is an innate process in our psyche.  I am not trying to defend the policy, just pointing out that other societies are equally unjust and that it is part of the way the world works.

Not only is Total War a horrid thing, but so too was the paralleling Race War of WWII's Pacific Campaign.

Umm...the Pacific War, with all its racial undertones (Shido Minzoku, "Yellow Fever") was the Total War I was referring to.

It wasn't the first and it won't be the last.

If you want to read more about it, I suggest:
Race War!: White Surpremacy and the Japanese Attack on the British
by Gerald Horne (Author)

Looking through the reviews....

The Japanese were poor targets of a shift in American racial hatred?

The Chinese appreciated the Japanese "Liberation" of the mainland from European Hegemony?

Race was the primary driver of war in the Pacific?  (Sorry, black and white arguments almost always collapse)

No thanks, revisionist history is not really my forte.

Unless one is a complete moron, no one paints the Pacific War as a rosy clash of good vs evil.  As well, the deep flaws in the civil society of the United States are universally recognized (C'mon, we all watched Hart's War).

Is there anything special you're trying to tell me here.  Was this war any different then the Eastern Front?  Or how about the Crusades?  Or how about Cortes?  I could go on here, but what I'm getting at is that applying our "lofty" moral standards of today to historical events isn't going to help much.

 

[McG]

If you cannot summarize the facts & arguments from the works you have read, then it leads me to believe that you are not convinced by the substance of those articles.

Lets face it, we cannot argue quotes.  I can post quotes, you can post quotes, Infanteer can post quotes.  But if we don't get down to arguing substance, we have not really had a discussion.  To present quotes, state and opinion, and say "go read the books" does not constitute an argument.

 

[CivU]

"Many of these are legitimate cases.  Canada has stringent standards for professions for a reason, and we cannot assume that foreign training will meet Canadian requirements.  Anyways, there is nothing wrong with programs to upgrade the training of immigrants.

Now, are these doctors and engineers eternally damned to a life of poverty and driving taxis?  Look at a university campus in Canada - probably not."

and...

"Yup.  So we're rascists; as I said in another thread, inclusive fitness is an innate process in our psyche.  I am not trying to defend the policy, just pointing out that other societies are equally unjust and that it is part of the way the world works."


Infanteer, I'm beginning to think we may not be so far off on a lot of things...I agree training has to be stringent and that programs to elevate existing standards are neccessary, and also that we can't defend that policy, but that also isn't to say we aren't alone...

In saying that, while I dont believe everyone who is poor will never acheive social mobility...I do believe particular groups are more hindered in their attempts systemically.  These barriers are necessary to break down if we are to acheive the kind of equality supported by the Charter.  As well, I do believe some persons are oppressed and that assistance in alleviating such forces would lead to a more productive society based on equality, which is hardly an undesirable concept...

Regardless of oversimplifying or overcomplicating, the point I've been trying to make is that barriers do exist to certain groups that need to be addressed by programs that identify the causes, attempt to eliminate them, and do so not at the expense of merited persons...If an individual has attained a position through merit, they should not lose it, but if a person has attained a position through networks that have fostered inequalities and not based on merit, then their position will most certainly be in jeopardy to merited persons put on an equal footing...

McG, it would be insulting to try and summarize a scholarly work of great depth in an informal setting such as this. What is more prudent is to cite the article so that you can access it.  If you provide citations I will review them myself.  The quotes were an attempt to partially introduce the direction (they came from abstracts) so as to provide a stepping stone to documents you might be interested in.  If you feel it's not worth your time to read the relevant literature, how can you participate in a legitimate discussion...

 

[Infanteer]

In saying that, while I dont believe everyone who is poor will never acheive social mobility...I do believe particular groups are more hindered in their attempts systemically.   These barriers are necessary to break down if we are to acheive the kind of equality supported by the Charter.   As well, I do believe some persons are oppressed and that assistance in alleviating such forces would lead to a more productive society based on equality, which is hardly an undesirable concept...

Regardless of oversimplifying or overcomplicating, the point I've been trying to make is that barriers do exist to certain groups that need to be addressed by programs that identify the causes, attempt to eliminate them, and do so not at the expense of merited persons...If an individual has attained a position through merit, they should not lose it, but if a person has attained a position through networks that have fostered inequalities and not based on merit, then their position will most certainly be in jeopardy to merited persons put on an equal footing...

...and I've been trying to ask of you what those systemic barriers are.

And up until now all you've provided me with is that "Immigrants are Poor".   As McG pointed out to you, it doesn't do much to further your case.

Please show me where minorities need additional help to get a foot in the door beyond those already legally possessed under the Charter (in that no one can throw a sign out saying "Whites Only").   Sure, some redneck may not hire an immigrant from Trinidad to drive a loader, but is that an exception or the norm?

Please show me how woman are being held down under the boot of patriarchy.  

Please show me how any poor person can only achieve success at the expense of a Caucasian male who may have warranted the opportunity.

Until you can do this, you're not going to convince me that Affirmative Action is an inherently good or healthy policy in a modern liberal democracy.

...and since McG has so cordially invited us all to play the quote game (opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one and they all stink...)

"Affirmative action programs corrode minorities' long-term aspirations and should be abandoned because they violate basic American democratic values of equality and merit, according to University of Michigan philosophy professor Carl Cohen."

Read about it here: (a caveat; I have no real interest in the topic, I just googled something to back me up - the point is to, as McG says, show some substance, which a googled article doesn't really add up to):

http://www.law.virginia.edu/home2002/html/news/2003_fall/cohen.htm

 

[CivU]

"Thanks for taking the time to spell out what you were explaining earlier.

Although it may fall under the definition of "affirmative action", I'm not sure that I'd classify what you underlined to be affirmative action in the "political" sense.  Targeting different regions/groups of people with recruiting drives does not affect standards of enrollment or recruit competition, so it does not seem to fit into the "political" defintion of affirmative action - which means that standards or requirements are set at different levels for different groups of people; a practice I'm fundamentally opposed to."

Earlier I discussed some barriers such as a lack of cultural connection or geopgraphic factors.  I do not agree with lowering standards; however, I will address the systemic barriers you questioned.

Access to education is hindered by financial status, this can apply to anyone of any race, sex, religion, but as we've already established, the most predominantly poor are minorities.  The highest test scores are predominantly produced in either the private school sector or the public schools in the most affluent neighbourhoods, drawing conclusions between a relationship of income to educational access.  As well, despite the availability of loans to a certain number of persons, increasing deregulation of tuition prices is causing access to university to become more and more limited to members of the upper middle class. 

Access to certification, as briefly discussed earlier.  Limiting access to foreign trained professionals, despite shortages in Canada, provides limited oppurtunity for qualified immigrants to attain work.  There must be a stringent evaluation process, but as both underemployment and a lack of professionals remains a problem, one must question why an evaluation process isn't firmly established.

General access limited by income.  The development of cultural capital can be an expensive process.  The advantages of travel, access to museums and cultural centres, computers in the home, and enhanced learning tools to develop a child's developmental potential are limited to those who can afford them.

Ability to study uninhibitied.  Having to balance full or part time work while in high school, as well as babysitting your brothers and sisters while your parents work overtime in minimum wage occupations to make ends meat can hinder a persons ability to compete with individuals who have only studies to concentrate on due to economic advantages.

Here are a few, I'm not suggesting concrete solutions to any of these problems, as many are issues of one persons situation as being tougher than anothers; however, the inequalities previously suggested, and largely accepted, in income levels within Canada between minorities and non-minorities is a fundamental factor in existing social barriers... 

 

[Infanteer]

I would attempt to address your points, but it would be a waste of time (why, I'll explain below):

Access to education is hindered by financial status, this can apply to anyone of any race, sex, religion, but as we've already established, the most predominantly poor are minorities.

No you didn't.   You established that the most predominantly poor are immigrants.  

Does the fact that some immigrants are poor mean that all immigrants are poor?   No.

Does the fact that some immigrants are "minorities" (what a stupid word) mean that all immigrants are minorities.?   No.

Does the fact that some poor people are minority immigrants mean that all poor people are minority immigrants?   You can see where this is going; your logic is beginning to stretch thin.

What you seem to be addressing with your examples are issues related to economic disparities as opposed to prejudicial disparities (McG brought this up earlier - did you just ignore him?).   Economic issues don't really have much to do with affirmative action; which is "positive steps to enhance the diversity of some group, often to remedy the cumulative effect of subtle as well as gross expressions of prejudice." (got that off google too).   Steps to remedy the examples you presented lie not with an affirmative action program, but with different approaches to wealth distribution which is the subject for another thread (socialism, Invisible Hand, blahblahblah)

You've yet to convince me that "Woman and People of Colour need Assistance to Move up the Socioeconomic Ladder".  What you've presented are good cases for "Poor People need Assistence to Move Up the Socioeconomic Ladder." - which is a valid point for discussion on another thread but irrelevant here  (remember:  positive steps to enhance the diversity of some group.)

You've still got a ways to go before you'll convince me that "Poor People are Predominantly People of Colour and Woman and this Poorness is a result of Systemic Barriers put in Place by a White Male Oriented System".

 

[Bograt]

Infanteer,

Not that it matters much, but I would like to congratulate you on your series of posts. Excellent job.

 

[Heatwave]

Wow, leave for a few hours, and look at the work that's been done!  

Anyway, sorry to go back to page 3 of this post but I have to address something from  CivU:  "there is in fact no such thing as reverse discrimination."

Unfortunately, you are misinformed on this statement...as with the Toronto and Hamilton Human Resources Dept situations...more to follow.

"The concept of reverse discrimination is a label addressed to acts that seemingly enrich opportunities for visible minorities at the expense of Caucasian males; however, this lacks credibility."

This doesn't lack credibility, because it, in fact, happened!  Well, I didn't want to get into too many details, but I better give the Reader's Digest version of what happened.  The Hamilton and Toronto Fire Departments were having competitions to hire new Fire Fighters.  The Human Resources Departments are the ones that do the hiring, which is normal.  The tests consisted of everything from medicals, physicals, aptitude tests, and general professionalism during interviews.  There was a large number of individuals that scored high, but were never hired.  This caused an investigation and, using the Access to Information Act, it was found that people were "skipped-over" in order to hire those that "were less proficient and scored lower" just for the sake of increasing the visible minorities within the Department.  That is it, in a nut shell...Reverse Discrimination...and these are the cases that essentially, coined that term for us to be aware of today...which, again, is my point.  We must be careful.

I don't know about yourself, but if I require First Aid, or need to be rescued from an auto accident/fire/confined space, etc, etc, I want the one that scored the highest to be saving my ***, not the one that was placed in the position because there weren't enough "Blue Quahogs" seen wearing the Fire Dept. uniform.  

Kind of ironic...this coming from an individual (implying myself) that works for a company which gets most of it's equipment form the lowest bidder :

Chimo!