I'm all for getting the word out and attracting more 'applicants' from minority groups, hopefully that will mean more successful applicants. But please if they're not suited for the job, don't try and fill some equity 'ratio' like they do in the work force.
Employment Equity in the CAF ( merged )
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While not an organization that is considered a mainstream part of the workforce, the CF is part of Canada's workforce, and it's not necessarily a bad thing that they want to attract a group/groups of people who traditionally don't serve in the forces, the more the merrier, right?
However, that being said, I can't help but wonder about the problems I had when applying for a few police forces and being told that I wasn't "reflective of the community demographic that they were looking for at that point in time." I see that in the recruiting brochures many of the people shown, whether sailors, techs, or infantry are women, and I know that when you gear a recruiting process to a group like women, you inevitably make it less attractive to men. I have friends that didn't apply because it didn't look like something they were interested in, because all the video's and brochures were full of smiling happy women, and they were more interested in being dirty, and crawling around under barbed wire, and cussin' and spittin'.
Is that going to happen when you gear it to blacks, or aboriginals, or whatever... is it going to stop looking attractive to whites? Is it going to be another situation where white guys get passed over for minorities, regardless of qualifications? And then they get disillusioned (like I did with the police) and start looking somewhere else?
Grub fer ponderin'....
However, that being said, I can't help but wonder about the problems I had when applying for a few police forces and being told that I wasn't "reflective of the community demographic that they were looking for at that point in time." I see that in the recruiting brochures many of the people shown, whether sailors, techs, or infantry are women, and I know that when you gear a recruiting process to a group like women, you inevitably make it less attractive to men. I have friends that didn't apply because it didn't look like something they were interested in, because all the video's and brochures were full of smiling happy women, and they were more interested in being dirty, and crawling around under barbed wire, and cussin' and spittin'.
Is that going to happen when you gear it to blacks, or aboriginals, or whatever... is it going to stop looking attractive to whites? Is it going to be another situation where white guys get passed over for minorities, regardless of qualifications? And then they get disillusioned (like I did with the police) and start looking somewhere else?
Grub fer ponderin'....
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Interesting comments. Off the top of my head I can think of the names of four "visible minority" soldiers who were Regimental Sergeants Major in The RCR. They are certainly among the most professional soldiers I have ever had the privilege of serving with, and their abiity to balance their 'old school' military upbringing with new attitudes of inclusiveness and equal opportunity (i.e., the right to to try, not to be confused to any perception of a right to success without the required potential and performance) was exemplary. Statistically, I suspect their success was way above any expectations based solely on numbers. I would hate to think we may miss the chance to recruit other soldiers of that calibre because some would promote the concept of the Canadian military as an exclusive club for white males.
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The CF is not, and should not be an exclusively white anglo male club, but neither should it imply to potential recruits that one group of them is more highly prized due to the color of their skin.
True equality would mean that the recruiting system would be "blind" to ancestry and sex. You are your rank, trade and pers file - nothing more, nothing less. The bottom line is, certain lines of work are going to be more attractive to certain groups of people, no matter how much the CF tries to diversify.
I suspect that the reg force infantry will always be a male dominated trade, just as dental assistant will probably always be a female dominated one, why can't we be happy with this? The social engineering that the CF pursues looks shallow, and most people I know only smirk and laugh at these foolish attempts.
Pick the best person for the job - period. SAY you are going to do so, then do it - color and sex be damned.
True equality would mean that the recruiting system would be "blind" to ancestry and sex. You are your rank, trade and pers file - nothing more, nothing less. The bottom line is, certain lines of work are going to be more attractive to certain groups of people, no matter how much the CF tries to diversify.
I suspect that the reg force infantry will always be a male dominated trade, just as dental assistant will probably always be a female dominated one, why can't we be happy with this? The social engineering that the CF pursues looks shallow, and most people I know only smirk and laugh at these foolish attempts.
Pick the best person for the job - period. SAY you are going to do so, then do it - color and sex be damned.
Bert
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The warm bodies, if I understand the context correctly, serve as role models or people of minority that have made it
into the CF.
Separating the issue of recruiting potential applicants and members who are already in the CF, the government in
general is trying to attract people who are representative of the overall population. The face of Canada in the last
30 years have changed. Also the CF is challenged by attrition, retirement, recruitment, and recent changes to
enhance the Force.
In my opinion, the average aboriginal, chinese, south american, vietnamese, immigrant or second generation as
examples are less likely to consider the CF as a possible career choice. I see no problem in the government or
the CF reaching out to ethnicities advertising recruitment.
I agree with GO!!!'s statement ,"Pick the best person for the job - period. SAY you are going to do so, then do it -
color and sex be damned.". However, to pick the best, you need applicants.
into the CF.
Separating the issue of recruiting potential applicants and members who are already in the CF, the government in
general is trying to attract people who are representative of the overall population. The face of Canada in the last
30 years have changed. Also the CF is challenged by attrition, retirement, recruitment, and recent changes to
enhance the Force.
In my opinion, the average aboriginal, chinese, south american, vietnamese, immigrant or second generation as
examples are less likely to consider the CF as a possible career choice. I see no problem in the government or
the CF reaching out to ethnicities advertising recruitment.
I agree with GO!!!'s statement ,"Pick the best person for the job - period. SAY you are going to do so, then do it -
color and sex be damned.". However, to pick the best, you need applicants.
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Bert said:
We have plenty of applicants. There just seems to be a problem with the fact that they are overwhelmingly young white males. Why?
There are better ways to attract people then saying "Hey look, this person has the same skin colour as you - Sign Up!"
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I don't think anyone has a problem with the government reaching out to minorities who wouldn't traditionally think of the CF as a viable option for a career, but I think that reaching out to one group at the expense of another group who, let's face it, is the bread and butter of the recruiting system, is folly. The government should pull it's head out of it's ass and accept the fact that there are not as many women out there who have the desire to join the infantry, as there are men. I don't think that the CF should be an mens-only club either, but let's face facts and acknowlege that it's going to be a boys club for as long as we aren't specifically engineering women for combat on a genetic level. There will be exceptions, and that's great, but not many.
And there quite simply are not a huge percentage of Aboriginals out there to begin with... 2% of the population. That's including women and elderly and children... how many of what's left will meet the requirments? 30% maybe? How many of those are practical to reach? How many are going to be interested even after the forces looks like a viable option? How many are we talking about now? Seems like the pie is sliced pretty thin.
As for immigrants, how many are fully intergrated into Canadian Society? Go into the nearest ethnic centre of any major city and you are going to find huge numbers of people who can barely speak English, or who can't speak it at all. You think they've got a deep-seated loyalty to our country, a loyalty deep enough that they are willing to die for it? How many have a military/family history in Canada? Now, how many young white guys on this forum have a relative, whom they are proud of, who fought for Canada at some point in the past?
Now, how much money is the CF willing to spend to try to fight what has, so far, been an uphill battle? Is it worth it?
I'm not advocating ignoring those segements of society, but what's wrong with fishing where the fish are biting?
And there quite simply are not a huge percentage of Aboriginals out there to begin with... 2% of the population. That's including women and elderly and children... how many of what's left will meet the requirments? 30% maybe? How many of those are practical to reach? How many are going to be interested even after the forces looks like a viable option? How many are we talking about now? Seems like the pie is sliced pretty thin.
As for immigrants, how many are fully intergrated into Canadian Society? Go into the nearest ethnic centre of any major city and you are going to find huge numbers of people who can barely speak English, or who can't speak it at all. You think they've got a deep-seated loyalty to our country, a loyalty deep enough that they are willing to die for it? How many have a military/family history in Canada? Now, how many young white guys on this forum have a relative, whom they are proud of, who fought for Canada at some point in the past?
Now, how much money is the CF willing to spend to try to fight what has, so far, been an uphill battle? Is it worth it?
I'm not advocating ignoring those segements of society, but what's wrong with fishing where the fish are biting?
It may not be an easy process, but intergrating non-Caucasians into the Canadian Army is an important goal. The percentage of the Canadian population that is non-white is only going to increase, and the Army should reflects that fact. Reaching out to minority applicants will NOT be "at the expense of another group", who is indeed the "bread and butter of the recruiting system". This program encourages minority applicants to be more interested in the Canadian Military, but it will not be an affirmative action program. Qualified minority applicants who have not considered a career with the DND might join, which is an undeniably good result, but under-qualified minority applicants will NOT take the place of a qualified white male soldier simply due to his minority status.
White male Canadians are indeed more likely to have military ties to this country - but should they be the only ones who do? If programs like this succeed in drawing more qualified minority candidates to the Canadian Military, then more of them will have the "deep-seated loyalty" to Canada that you speak of. Perhaps that will help intergrate the increasing number of immigrants to this country.
White male Canadians are indeed more likely to have military ties to this country - but should they be the only ones who do? If programs like this succeed in drawing more qualified minority candidates to the Canadian Military, then more of them will have the "deep-seated loyalty" to Canada that you speak of. Perhaps that will help intergrate the increasing number of immigrants to this country.
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Stupor,
You are using "immigrant" interchangeably with "visible minority" which I find interesting. Since our illustrious government is actively assisting "visible" immigrants to Canada, while raising the bar ever higher for "invisible" immigrants (primarily of scandinavian and european descent) you have to wonder just what these polices are in the first place.
Canada was built on the white, european settler, why is this something to be ashamed of, and it seems, eradicated?
You state that vis-min applicants will not take the place of other less well endowed applicants - how is that? If there are a limited number of positions, and priority is given to people who are the color of the month, how can other applicants hope not to be excluded?
Categorising applicants by the color of their skin is RACIST whether it is to help them get a job or not.
I would suggest that certain numbers of immigrants with skills required by the forces be conscripted as a "price" for them and their families to immigrate. This great nation of ours was not free for our families, why should it be for theirs?
You are using "immigrant" interchangeably with "visible minority" which I find interesting. Since our illustrious government is actively assisting "visible" immigrants to Canada, while raising the bar ever higher for "invisible" immigrants (primarily of scandinavian and european descent) you have to wonder just what these polices are in the first place.
Canada was built on the white, european settler, why is this something to be ashamed of, and it seems, eradicated?
You state that vis-min applicants will not take the place of other less well endowed applicants - how is that? If there are a limited number of positions, and priority is given to people who are the color of the month, how can other applicants hope not to be excluded?
Categorising applicants by the color of their skin is RACIST whether it is to help them get a job or not.
I would suggest that certain numbers of immigrants with skills required by the forces be conscripted as a "price" for them and their families to immigrate. This great nation of ours was not free for our families, why should it be for theirs?
I used "immigrant" interchangeably with "visible minority" because the majority of new immigrants to Canada are visible minorities. I am not aware of different immigration standards for applicants of Scandinavian and European descent, but I welcome you to enlighten me on that topic.
This program does not show that the Military is "ashamed" of its white, European root, or that it wants that legacy to be "eradicated". It simply seeks to keep the Military up to date with changing demographics of the Canadian population. I may have read wrongly, but from what I understand, this program merely encourages visible minority applicants to apply, presumably because they are under-represented in the Military. That encouragement does not, and indeed should not, translate into preferential recruitment. If there is no preferential treatment after applicant applies, then it would not be racist.
Immigrating to this country is no more free than it was in the past; present day immigrants pay their price to come here. It is a great country to immigrate to, for sure, and I would hope that as a good Canadian, you would welcome programs that call on these new immigrants to serve this great country.
This program does not show that the Military is "ashamed" of its white, European root, or that it wants that legacy to be "eradicated". It simply seeks to keep the Military up to date with changing demographics of the Canadian population. I may have read wrongly, but from what I understand, this program merely encourages visible minority applicants to apply, presumably because they are under-represented in the Military. That encouragement does not, and indeed should not, translate into preferential recruitment. If there is no preferential treatment after applicant applies, then it would not be racist.
Immigrating to this country is no more free than it was in the past; present day immigrants pay their price to come here. It is a great country to immigrate to, for sure, and I would hope that as a good Canadian, you would welcome programs that call on these new immigrants to serve this great country.
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The most common barrier emplaced is that of the ever elusive refugee status.
Immigrants from developed nations must show skills required in Canada, knowledge of the nation and at least one official language, identification, health checks, a large balance in a bank account and enter onto a long waiting list. It is difficult for these people to obtain refugee status because their countries keep accurate records and do not, as a group persecute their citizens.
Refugees are often turned loose in our cities while immigration attempts to confirm their identities. After they have lived there for a few years, they cannot be deported and are permitted to sponsor the rest of their families for entrance. The only prerequisite for entry is a belief that they will be persecuted in their home countries. While here, refugees and their families are entitled to the use of our Health Care system, a drivers licence, and welfare. Their children are citizens.
Policies like this allowed the illustrious Khadr family into Canada - and allows them to stay, despite well known and publicised terrorist connections, and the fact that the youngest son was recieving medical care in Canada after being wounded in a shootout with US troops in Afghanistan.
I welcome legitimate immigrants to Canada, but the legitimate, documented, legal immigrants are vastly outnumbered by the illegal refugees who stream into Canada on false pretenses, and take full advantage of a system they have no intention of ever participating in or supporting.
At present, 13% of the Canadian population identifies as a visible minority http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050322/d050322b.htm, and the CF has expressed in the past that this goal has been "exceeded".
If the goal has been met - Why the drive to have a disproportionately high number of visible minorities?
Immigrants from developed nations must show skills required in Canada, knowledge of the nation and at least one official language, identification, health checks, a large balance in a bank account and enter onto a long waiting list. It is difficult for these people to obtain refugee status because their countries keep accurate records and do not, as a group persecute their citizens.
Refugees are often turned loose in our cities while immigration attempts to confirm their identities. After they have lived there for a few years, they cannot be deported and are permitted to sponsor the rest of their families for entrance. The only prerequisite for entry is a belief that they will be persecuted in their home countries. While here, refugees and their families are entitled to the use of our Health Care system, a drivers licence, and welfare. Their children are citizens.
Policies like this allowed the illustrious Khadr family into Canada - and allows them to stay, despite well known and publicised terrorist connections, and the fact that the youngest son was recieving medical care in Canada after being wounded in a shootout with US troops in Afghanistan.
I welcome legitimate immigrants to Canada, but the legitimate, documented, legal immigrants are vastly outnumbered by the illegal refugees who stream into Canada on false pretenses, and take full advantage of a system they have no intention of ever participating in or supporting.
At present, 13% of the Canadian population identifies as a visible minority http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050322/d050322b.htm, and the CF has expressed in the past that this goal has been "exceeded".
If the goal has been met - Why the drive to have a disproportionately high number of visible minorities?
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I am confused that this discussion is even taking place.
Some leaders in the CF have determined that while we have been having success in bringing in the front door white franco/anglo males & females BUT that we have been having limited success in even getting to see potential candidates from these other groups.
The request for volunteers - from serving members in these same said other groups - was to provide some confidence builders - make the Recruiter's "sell job" easier to deliver.
The fact that someone had the brains to realise that some of our serving members could help - without yanking em out of their units is a good thing.
Some leaders in the CF have determined that while we have been having success in bringing in the front door white franco/anglo males & females BUT that we have been having limited success in even getting to see potential candidates from these other groups.
The request for volunteers - from serving members in these same said other groups - was to provide some confidence builders - make the Recruiter's "sell job" easier to deliver.
The fact that someone had the brains to realise that some of our serving members could help - without yanking em out of their units is a good thing.
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Does this not imply that by having a "visible minority" CF member try recruiting, they will attract more recruits of the same race? Sounds a little clanish to me.
Since when do we want to attract soldiers/sailors/airmen based on their minority standings and not on their genuine desire to serve? IMHO the government is so afraid of sounding racist/sexist that they have gone completely overboard.
CF recruiting should be spending funds expanding to urban areas and building more recruiting offices in order to make the forces apealing to all Canadians. Instead the powers that be come up with these ideas that are intended to imply that up till now we were a white boys only club but we are going to change things.
Since when do we want to attract soldiers/sailors/airmen based on their minority standings and not on their genuine desire to serve? IMHO the government is so afraid of sounding racist/sexist that they have gone completely overboard.
CF recruiting should be spending funds expanding to urban areas and building more recruiting offices in order to make the forces apealing to all Canadians. Instead the powers that be come up with these ideas that are intended to imply that up till now we were a white boys only club but we are going to change things.
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Stupor said:
I politely suggest you wake up and take a look around at some of the other governemt services that white anglo males are being slowly pushed out of. Men in general are rapidly being failed in the education system, and now are a minority on college/university campuses, because the government set up the system to be more accomodating to girls, the police department now HAS to hire a certain number of minorities and women, and as a result more highly qualified white guys get told that they should take a hike. Same with the Fire department. There are special days to recognize women in the workplace, there are programs for women to deal with domestic violence, but nothing/little for men (that's an odd topic anyway... but whatever), there is a systematic discrimination against men when it come to the legal system and divorce (don't even get me started...).
All I'm saying is that merit has fallen by the wayside, and the colour of your skin, or your gender is now seemingly more important that what you can do.... and it's wrong.
I graduated from a Police Foundations program, almost every visible minority member of my class/female has been hired by a police department. All the white guys are frustrated and working low-paying blue collar jobs because no one will hire them.
I have a friend who went through the same program as I did, and applied to half of the police forces in the country.... he gave up after seeing some of the same female recruits and finding out that they weren't paying for all the testing that they had to do, and he was because he didn't qualify for the subsidies because he was a member of an over-represented segement of society.... he tried for 3 years to get a job as a cop. Eventually he got frustrated, gave up, and applied to the army. He's now a member of 3PPCLI.
He's a member of 3PPCLI because the army didn't care what colour he was. As it should be.
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Dog,
agree 100% with you that forced diversity is defenitively not the way to go.
should be going entirely on competence and capabilities.
but, in some communities, the youths avoid the police 100% and the authorities pretty much just as much - because they don't trust them...
so a little bit of a helping hand to bring em out of the woodwork so we can talk to them makes a lot of sense
to me anyway
IMHO
agree 100% with you that forced diversity is defenitively not the way to go.
should be going entirely on competence and capabilities.
but, in some communities, the youths avoid the police 100% and the authorities pretty much just as much - because they don't trust them...
so a little bit of a helping hand to bring em out of the woodwork so we can talk to them makes a lot of sense
to me anyway
IMHO
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geo said:
Geo, the US army identified an untapped recruiting pool in the urban, non - white demographic too.
So they identified what those people were interested in, and they found SUVs, Rap Music, Pro sports and money.
As a result, they now drive US Army recruiting Humvees playing a specially commissioned Snoop Dogg rap tune to NCAA football and basketball games, where they tout the US Army's signing bonuses. Enlistment in these target groups has risen significantly.
What a concept - find what your target audience is interested in, then connect yourself to it. The recruiter's skin color is nearly a non - issue when this type of "selling the army" is taking place.
Conversely, we here in Canada seem to believe that the ethnicity of the recruiter will attract more vis-mins - see the problem?
I agree that placing quotas on visible-minority enrolment and valuing skin colour above capability is wrong. If your friend is more qualified than a female police officer, then he should have the job. However, that is not the argument here.
I am not calling on the Army to lower standards for visible minorities or females. I am only encouraging what I think is a good and harmless way to boost interest from under-represented groups. Personally, I would rather have a qualified candidate apply because he thinks of the Army as an inclusive institution from first-hand experience rather than because he thinks of it as a place to play with guns and get money, booze, fast cars and women (which are the main topics of rap music, no?).
I am not calling on the Army to lower standards for visible minorities or females. I am only encouraging what I think is a good and harmless way to boost interest from under-represented groups. Personally, I would rather have a qualified candidate apply because he thinks of the Army as an inclusive institution from first-hand experience rather than because he thinks of it as a place to play with guns and get money, booze, fast cars and women (which are the main topics of rap music, no?).
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GO!!! said:
Links? References? Stats? Pics?
I wonder how many white guys were in those special recruiting teams? Somehow I can't see a 30 year old white guy inspiring visible minority youth to join the Army just because he's driving a Humvee blaring Snoop Dog.
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