Fat troops on the street....

[spenco]

i love playing devils advocate. :evil:

 

[xenomfba]

Mmm.. Cooper‘s Test. A guy in my unit scored a 5 on the Cooper‘s Test last time. Yeah. 5 out of 100. However, he‘s in admin coy and, since I still get my pay cheque and my leave passes signed, I assume he‘s doing his job without a problem. ****, throw some cadpat on Jabba the Hutt for all I care. As long as he can do his job.

Exactly how fit does someone in admin coy have to be? Fit to fight? So in admin, you have to be fit enough to lay on the ground beside the CP and fire a rifle? If I ever see clerks doing a section attack, or even firing their weapon, I‘m not doing my job. Or I‘m dead. One or the other. Who does a section attack in a defensive position anyway? It‘s not like we‘ve got Cpl Perk the Clerk heading out on any fighting patrols.

I don‘t know. Seems like people getting worked up over nothing.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Infanteer:
[qb] Thing is smoking and drinking increase the CHANCES of a negative health effect in the LONG term.

Fat people are almost UNIVERSALLY unable to carry out the job of a soldier NOW.

Two different problems. One involves getting rid of nasty habits that may or may not affect ones ability, while the other involves getting rid of a nasty lifestyle that definately affects their ability to do the job now. [/qb]

Good answer!

 

[Lajeunesse]

Originally posted by spenco:
[qb] this topic has turned into a anti-fat people rant now, nothing more...while it is a problem that some people arent in good enough shape to be in the forces, how are out of shape fat people different then out of shape skinny people? should fat people be booted out just cause of their weight? how is that fair to the fat people who are in shape and do do a good job? you guys judge way to quickly and harshly. [/qb]

No, see you need to re-read what was posted, yes, there was some fat ppl bashing but only to get the point across that its harder for them to get the job done, they‘re an easier target..lol, they dont represent the whole military aspect very well..I could keep going but dont start getting all noble and **** just do yourself a favour and read before you post. Or maybey you need help understanding what we mean by what we post...or your fat and pissed about what was posted here. Whatever your problem is dont start stpid **** here.
Thanx
:threat:

 

[rdschultz]

I think you guys are missing the point. Like infanteer said, fat people are unable to perform their single most important duty. Being a soldier. If they are fat, and they are able to perform that duty, then by all means, let them do so. Discriminating on size or weight isn‘t the issue, its discriminating on physical fitness. It just so happens that size and weight is an indicator for fitness, like it or not. There might be fat people who can perform capably, but that isn‘t usually the case. If you‘ve got a 300 pound guy who can honestly perform the same duties as a 200 pound guy who‘s in shape, by all means let him do it. But I don‘t think you‘re going to find that.

If you want to talk about smokers or alcoholics, thats fine too. If they‘re honestly not fit, and they can‘t perform, then I think most people would have the same problem. But thats not what this is about. Besides, a smoker who does his regular PT is still in relatively good shape (depending, of course). A fat person obviously doesn‘t do their P . The issue isn‘t just that they‘re fat, but that they don‘t do their PT.

There is also the case to be made that they‘re REMF‘s and have no real reason to stay in shape. But the logical extension of that gets in shaky territory. If they don‘t need to stay in shape for combat, why train them for it at all? Why not just do away with basic training for everybody but the combat arms, and save thousands of dollars each year. Obviously, because thats not the way the military works, and thats not how it should work.

 

[nULL]

a fat (or thin) guy doing their job on a base should be worth 15 fit guys in a gym somewhere.

 

[Infanteer]

Well, if you guys feel that being a fat guy in an office supports winning the land battle, then go ahead. Just know that you‘ll never have my support. If your competant at your trade, but no good at being a soldier, your useless to me.

Look at Michael Dorosh. Sure, he is in a rear-ech trade. It is vital for the day-to-day running of the army. However, I can think of multiple occasions where he has mentioned that he has filled in as a rifleman in a trench or worked at some other essential position in the company on exercise.
Now there is a something I can respect; competant tradesmen and a good soldier.

 

[Tyler]

What Infanteer said. ^

In the army everyone is a soldier first, that priority comes before their trade. At least I thought that was the whole point of the training system...

If you cant soldier on with the rest of us, then get out. It doesn‘t matter if you do your trade well, you need to be able to fight. Rear echelon people need to be on their toes during a war because there are a whole lot of enemy SF types that have trained to go behind our front lines and screw with the supply system. Guerilla warfare isn‘t a whole lot different in that regard, just look at Iraq: how many supply convoys have been attacked or bombed? It isn‘t just the combat arms that are involved in the fighting. Everyone has to pull their own weight. (no pun intended)

Tyler

 

[Slim]

Infanteer, good on you for stating the obvious.

1. Everyone in the army is an infantryman first! And when the bad guys blow up the fat wog‘s truck and typewriter he suddenly can‘t do his job anymore because he is NOT physically fit enough to even run away!

Another point of contention with me is how the wogs repeatedly fail to qualify on even basic weapon skills ( although the military holds some of the blame there-but thats another story).

I was at the CNE this summer and, as usual, went to see what the army booth looked like or if there was anyone I knew there.

When I get there all I see is a HUGELY OVERWEIGHT person in cadpat standing there. Not a surprise that they weren‘t talking to anyone. I can see it now

"Come on down and join the world‘s fattest, most out-of-shape army!"

I remember the 20km recce runs around the Glenmore reseviour (full kit and weapon) with fond nostalgia.

It‘s gotta change.

 

[Infanteer]

I‘ve said it before and I‘ll say it again.

In the Royal Marines, every Marine is a rifleman. If you are not assigned to a specific trade (the list is on their website) then you are classified as general duties rifleman. EVERY Marine has to go through the 30 week commando course, completeing the 30miler in less than 8 hours.

Why can‘t we strive for this?

 

[Jungle]

[qb]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
[qb]

how can they not be extended equally to people who over indulge in tobacco and alcohol as opposed to food? [/qb]

Don‘t know about the ResF, but I know a few guys who were shown the door for alcohol abuse in the RegF. It is a lenghty process, but it is being done. As for smoking, soon you will have to leave the base entirely to smoke, I think these are good measures to help people quit/ reduce consumption.
Now regarding clerks and such, didn‘t 3PPCLI bring clerks on combat ops in Afghanistan ? I remember seeing a pic of a female clerk on the Whale...
The references are clear: we are all Soldiers first (or supposed to be). Our job as Leaders is to enforce this concept, and take action on those (fat or not) who are out of shape.

 

[bubba]

hey jungle,infanteer,bossi and slim good posts,not everybody is pretty to watch,but if they can‘t do the job phisically fat or skinny then start the paper work. i seen lots skinny guys that could run like deer,but put a ruck on their back or do a 2x10 you‘d see some cryin.me i always prefered a hoss to a runner in the feild.a hoss aint pretty in spandex and nike airs,but in the feild he can soldier 24/7 and never QUITS himself or his buds..

 

[Danjanou]

Slim I think I know that recruiting Jabba at the CNE you speak of. Last summer I dragged the rugrats down there, thinking that they might have had the cool stuff for kids from the year before (Snowbirds cockpit, periscope mock up, LAVIII mockup etc) for them to play around with. Nada this time (budget cuts?). Anyway I ended up talking to the REMF and let it slip that I had been in and was actually thinking about coming back.

It was pointed out that no problem, we're desperate but of course I'd have to pass a fitness test. That coming form this individual was hilarious. Hey my six pack abs may have grown to a full dozen over the years , but it ain't keg sized yet, and I can tell I was in a lot better shape then said individual and am what 15-20 years older.

Look I know it was Frank and they had an agenda in the article and probably spent a week tracking down the worst elephants at Disneyland on the Rideau for that reason, but it's still a valid issue. Public perception is important. More importantly there is the mission, something some PC bureaucrat at NDHQ has obviously forgotten.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Infanteer:
[qb] Look at Michael Dorosh. Sure, he is in a rear-ech trade. It is vital for the day-to-day running of the army. However, I can think of multiple occasions where he has mentioned that he has filled in as a rifleman in a trench or worked at some other essential position in the company on exercise.
Now there is a something I can respect; competant tradesmen and a good soldier. [/qb]

I appreciate that. I don‘t know about "good" or "essential positions" and it hasn‘t happened too often in my case so I don‘t want to seem like I‘m overinflating my own abilities.

Setting up a RRB site on an ex last October I‘m not ashamed to say I made the two young privates with me carry the radios to the top of the hill! I did of course haul my own ruck weapon and webbing. Wouldn‘t have won a foot race to the top, though. It certainly reinforced my wish that I had more time to devote to personal training.

But there have been many non-Infantry tradesmen in our unit in recent years that have always filled in where possible - But the leadership of the companies also haven‘t tried to work anybody to death or evict people on principle. Even in my trade, there have been a couple of lulus over the years as far as mental capacity, and we always gave them a fair shake. As one of the CSMs at the time told me regarding one of them "he‘s a Highlander now", and that really said it all.

If one really wants to make excuses for those chunkies in the photos, I think what those recruiting types need is some form of regimental pride, not just pride in the uniform. And in Ottawa, being in uniform probably isn‘t a big thing.

In every field of endeavour there will be "just doing my job" types rather than those who seek out challenge and growth. You can‘t legislate against it and you can‘t make them enjoy challenge or change. I also don‘t think you can get rid of them in peacetime - especially the new climate we have of shedding individual responsibility in favour of personal rights makes it impossible to do so even if we wanted.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I‘ve seen some really big guys and girls. They are as nice as can be but for whatever the reason (job, genetics, eating disorder, laziness) it looks very unprofessional and it‘s embarassing.

It‘s the canadian public that pays for soldiers salary and equipment. You want the best equipment we can get to protect canadian interests right? Why wouldnt you want the best soldiers that you can get for what you pay for. Soldiers are starting to make some good money. I‘m a soldier but i also pay taxes and i dont like the idea of paying someone money to sit on their butt when its int he job description that they keep themselves fit.

 

[combat_medic]

By all rights, my trade is a "rear ech" trade as well, and several people have commented on all the ‘fat medics‘ they‘ve seen wandering around (I‘m not going to dispute that; I‘ve seen them too). However, I can‘t even begin to count the number of times I‘ve been on patrol, or had to ruck march to an objective, or be on enemy force, or set up an OP, all while humping an additional 20 pounds of medical kit on top of my other kit. Every trade needs fitness.

If you‘re a driver/wrench turner - what if your vehicle breaks down and you need to ruck it out of the area?
If you‘re a clerk/comms/admin type - what if the CP is overrun?

As Infanteer stated, you have to be a soldier first. You could be the best medic in the world; you could have an MD in civilian life, but if you can‘t use a rifle and march to the objective, then you‘re useless. An artilleryman without a howtizer is an infantryman. A driver without a vehicle is an infantryman.... get the point? If we ALL can‘t do the job of a soldier, then we have no business impersonating one by wearing the uniform.

 

[Teamfm]

Hey I totally agree with all you guys, I use to be overweight, 18 years old, 5‘11, 225 lbs. An decided that I wanted to be the best soldier I could possibly be... and to be the best, you have to train like the best. So I started to run, run, run, push ups, sit ups, more running, ruck sack marches, hours and hours weightlifting and lots and lots of chin ups and now I am down to 190 lbs (still gonna lose 10 more pounds) and now I have ALOT of muscle and feel amazing! and I can honestly say that being overweight made everything I did harder (physical wise). Genetics? I use to use that excuss, then I actually got off my *** and did some PT. Now I can‘t stay still! It‘s all in your head, if you want to be in shape, you can get in shape!, just have to push yourself alittle. Not stay behind a desk and eat all day...

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by combat_medic:
[qb] By all rights, my trade is a "rear ech" trade as well, and several people have commented on all the ‘fat medics‘ they‘ve seen wandering around (I‘m not going to dispute that; I‘ve seen them too). However, I can‘t even begin to count the number of times I‘ve been on patrol, or had to ruck march to an objective, or be on enemy force, or set up an OP, all while humping an additional 20 pounds of medical kit on top of my other kit. Every trade needs fitness.

If you‘re a driver/wrench turner - what if your vehicle breaks down and you need to ruck it out of the area?
If you‘re a clerk/comms/admin type - what if the CP is overrun?

As Infanteer stated, you have to be a soldier first. You could be the best medic in the world; you could have an MD in civilian life, but if you can‘t use a rifle and march to the objective, then you‘re useless. An artilleryman without a howtizer is an infantryman. A driver without a vehicle is an infantryman.... get the point? [/qb]

Take a look at your Armouries right now. Immediately punt everyone on a med cat or who couldn‘t complete the fitness test and qualify on the rifle up to Level II.

Ask yourself who would be conducting and supporting the next brigade exercise.

Get the point?

Ideally, of course the goal is to have everyone capable of performing as a rifleman as required. What‘s your plan on implementing that?

 

[Infanteer]

Ideally, of course the goal is to have everyone capable of performing as a rifleman as required. What‘s your plan on implementing that?

1. Set a minimum fitness standard composed of objective tests that would establish ones physical fitness level. (I‘ve always been partial to the APFT)

2. Give EVERYONE notice of a CF wide assessment in 6 months time.

3. On "Fitness Day", any failures will be given a remedial PT program (Regs after work, Res one to take home and fill in everyday); 3 months later they are retested.

4. If failure occurs again, a final warning is given and a second retest occurs three months later. Failure of the second retest results in a seperation.

One year to shape up or ship out. I think it is reasonable. The only problem is that NDHQ would probably empty out quit quick (wait a minute, is that a problem?)

 

[combat_medic]

Michael: I‘m not suggesting that people be punted right off for being on med cat, but what I WAS trying to get across is that being in a rear ech trade, or sitting behind a desk does not mean that you never have to be fit. I like the suggestion that Infanteer made above about having testing and remedial fitness training. Passing something as simple as the CF Express test should be the absolute bare minimum (when I was in the worst shape of my life I could still pass it), and if you can‘t do it in a year‘s time, with notice, I don‘t see any reason why you should still be soldiering.