Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase

[Furniture]

If the pipeline is built, and at a not unreasonable expense (given it's going to be government built), I will give the current Liberal government it's due praise.

I believe the PM should have used more of his "social license" to push it in the political arena before having to make it a government project. I'm fairly certain I know why they didn't, but I think the repercussions from the green left will be just as severe as if they had pushed politically via legislation. The right leaning voters now resent the government for making it a nationalized asset, and the green left will despise them for building/attempting another pipeline.   

 

[Edward Campbell]

Notwithstanding your thinly disguised and all too predictable personal attack on the PM, what do you think the Government should have done?

In fact this is, arguably, the least bad course of action open ... but this government ended up in a corner because of their own ill considered political choices in 2015, 2016 and 2017 as they tried to appease too many constituencies at the expense of the national interest.

Sort of doing the right (at least not terribly wrong) thing for all the wrong reasons ...


Edit: to dd "thing" in last sentence  ???

 

[Retired AF Guy]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pipeline-morneau-nationalize-1.4682199

Taxpayers will foot the $4.5 billion purchase price. That sum doesn't include what could be billions of dollars in construction costs, or the costs of cleaning up a spill - although Morneau said Alberta's government will share the cost of any unexpected or emergency cost overruns.

And there are no guarantees that the pipeline will return the investment when (and if) a buyer can be found sometime in the future — that selling the line will fetch an asking price that realizes the full value of the public money being invested.

Morneau said many private sector investors expressed interest in the project, though he failed to explain why none of them were prepared to take the same risk with shareholders' money he's taking with taxpayers' money, given the staunch public opposition and ongoing protests against the project at the pipeline's terminus in Burnaby, B.C.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberals-trans-mountain-pipeline-kinder-morgan-1.4681911

"Canadian public could also incur millions to construct expansion project with estimated price tag of $7.4B"

I misspoke when I used the term "rivals" in my last post.

I should have said "dwarves".

I really cannot see this ending well for anybody.

Chump change. After all, in 2009 the federal and Ontario governments provided $13.7 billion to the auto sector and only recovered something like $5.4 billion from the sale of shares.

And, I don't remember the left complaining about it when it happened.

 

[Cloud Cover]

There's nothing wrong with a government being responsive to logical and responsible concerns raised by constituents and other levels of government, but in this case those concerns are barely visible but nor are they invisible or ill founded (environmentally).  Prime Minister St. Laurent built many, many great projects by ramming them through, which however necessary for the good of the country, might not have been the best course of action.  My **guess** is that it is difficult to govern anymore in this day and age, the process of governing fits with very little sensible reasoning in the age of hyper speed reactivity. 

Was this a situation of Mortons Fork,  Hobsons Choice or Buridans Ass for the feds? Discuss.

 

[PuckChaser]

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[SeaKingTacco]

Notwithstanding your thinly disguised and all too predictable personal attack on the PM, what do you think the Government should have done?

How about not vilifying the oil industry for the past two years?

How about not squibbing two other pipeline projects (Energy East and Northern Gateway)?

How about not walking around babbling about "social license" and instead, upholding the rule of law?

Most (but not all) First Nations on the Transmountain route are onboard. Want make it politically unpalatable for the pipeline opponents to oppose the project? Make the First Nations in question equity partners in the deal.

 

[ModlrMike]

There's a widely held belief in BC that environmentalists have been a driving force in FN poverty. The irony of having FN on board the KM project would be epic!

 

[daftandbarmy]

There's a widely held belief in BC that environmentalists have been a driving force in FN poverty. The irony of having FN on board the KM project would be epic!

Fortunately, we don't hear too much about this First Nations led effort to save BC & Canada from itself:

First Nations pipeline has a plan to get around B.C. oil tanker ban — an old gold-rush town in Alaska
http://business.financialpost.com/commodities/energy/first-nations-pipeline-has-a-plan-to-get-around-b-c-oil-tanker-ban-an-old-gold-rush-town-in-alaska

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

In fact this is, arguably, the least bad course of action open ... but this government ended up in a corner because of their own ill considered political choices in 2015, 2016 and 2017 as they tried to appease too many constituencies at the expense of the national interest.

Sort of doing the right (at least not terribly wrong) for all the wrong reasons ...

Quite right, E.R.C.

For me, this is just the Federal Liberals yet again using billions of taxpayer dollars to get themselves out of a corner into which they willfully painted themselves to start with. If it ever manages to pay for itself and make us money, I'll gladly eat my words - but nothing in the way Governments have run what are basically business interests in the past gives me the warm and fuzzier at this point.

 

[ModlrMike]

Just so I understand the situation... we bought a pipeline at the same time as we have a tanker ban before parliament?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Both sides could have done better, the CPC made massive changes to legislation with little consultations and not a lot of thought into the wording, making the decisions based on them, worthy of court challenges. Had they done a bit less and consulted more, there would have been less ground for opponents to stand on. The Liberals campaigned on how they were going to "protect the environment" and reverse those legislative changes, yet are fully supporting a project reviewed and approved under those changes, so massive hypocrite be them. Beyond the protests, thee are some legit concerns, mainly getting tankers through the 2 narrows and under the rail lift span, which is already a problem area for intermodel conflicts, soon to be made worse by Saudi owned G3 grain terminals. The current pipeline provides 40% of the feedstock for the main refinery, hopefully they can push through more feedstock and refined product, reducing our dependency on the US refineries.   

 

[Cloud Cover]

ERC it seems Andrew Coyne agrees: http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/liberals-took-only-possible-route-out-of-mess-they-created/amp

 

[Brad Sallows]

The BC NDP also painted themselves into a corner.  Opposing the pipeline is the "win" they are trying to preserve for the no-compromise environmentalists in general and the Greens in particular, after having given over some "losses" - site C dam go-ahead, bridge toll removals, support for natural gas infrastructure.

At both levels (fed and prov), purely political concerns drove the early moves which positioned the parties where they are now.  Not much "rational", "evidence-driven", "reality-based" technocracy at work.  Just "what-must-I-do-today-to-drift-with-the-wind".

Conservatives are having their cake and eating it on this one.  Support for the government undertaking to get the pipeline built; criticism for the government reducing its options to nationalization.

The government can turn a profit on this, but only if it operates the pipeline as a crown corporation for long enough.  I can't see any other party stepping up to buy it until all the legal uncertainties have been removed, and I can't believe that will be true until well after the deal is complete and construction is continuing.

 

[Altair]

Before this week it has been "protect our jobs! "

This week "not like that! "

 

[PuckChaser]

Before this week it has been "protect our jobs! "

This week "not like that! "

What protected jobs? Last I saw the pipeline is still under legal challenge and locked down by protesters flaunting court orders. The only way to truly get the pipeline built was invoking Sect 92(10) of the British North America Act. The Liberal government has failed to do that, and has now saddled us with a $4.5B CAD project in which the government should only have a hand in approving, not running.

Nobody is buying the spin, this is a bad deal for Canada. Its the Gas Plant scandal times at least 4.5.

 

[jollyjacktar]

But it is a no-Wyn situation.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Why don't they deploy a bunch of cops in riot gear and arrest the law breakers?

 

[Altair]

What protected jobs? Last I saw the pipeline is still under legal challenge and locked down by protesters flaunting court orders. The only way to truly get the pipeline built was invoking Sect 92(10) of the British North America Act. The Liberal government has failed to do that, and has now saddled us with a $4.5B CAD project in which the government should only have a hand in approving, not running.

Nobody is buying the spin, this is a bad deal for Canada. Its the Gas Plant scandal times at least 4.5.

Spin. Heh.

Everyone would have been up in arms had this pipeline died,  people accused the liberal government of wanting it to die,  the government outright buys the the darn thing,  and now they are doing a bad deal.

Its amazing.  They will never win,  its amazing that they try.

 

[PuckChaser]

Spin. Heh.

Everyone would have been up in arms had this pipeline died,  people accused the liberal government of wanting it to die,  the government outright buys the the darn thing,  and now they are doing a bad deal.

Its amazing.  They will never win,  its amazing that they try.

I think your judgement is clouded. In what world is a government owned pipeline good? How's all that government owned oil working for Venezuela? You even said months ago the easy solution was for 92(10) to be used and it would solve all these problems. Instead, the federal government now owns a political and financially risky billion dollar pipeline with legislation from their own party pushing for an oil tanker ban on the area for the outlet of said pipeline.

If Trudeau had used 92(10) months ago, I would have told you that it was a good call and we could move on with our day. In buying the pipeline, he tried to straddle the perfect middle road: delaying conflict with the environmentalists he courts for votes, and placating the party faithful that will claim he's moving an important economic project forward. I just can't wait for the Question Period where this whole mess is somehow the Harper government's fault.

 

[Altair]

Is it good?  No.

Is it the disaster people are making it out to be?  No.