First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, residential schools, etc. (merged)

[Colin Parkinson]

Lack of will, you needed a W.A.C. Bennett with some vision. Having spent a lot time on infrastructure projects in Northern BC and the Yukon, I seen the will to increase connectivity of the communities both physically and electronically.

 

[brihard]

Giving a large sum of money to every FN could have some unintended consequences.

If teenagers and young adults started abandoning the reserves and the north to head to the big city it wouldn't take long for the government to get accused of trying to pick up where the residential schools left off by those left on the reserves with a dwindling population and workforce.

Many of us have seen some of the negative effects of what a large influx of cash can do to CAF members suffering from substance abuse problems or mental health issues. If there are alcohol and drug problems on certain reserves a large influx of cash in everyone's pocket could be pretty detrimental.

It’s been a serious issue with CERB. Certainly not one limited to First Nations of course. There are a certain segment of people across all of the population who, given a windfall, are going to quickly piss it away. CERB parties rife with drugs, alcohol, and stupidity have been a definite thing.

 

[dapaterson]

It’s been a serious issue with CERB. Certainly not one limited to First Nations of course. There are a certain segment of people across all of the population who, given a windfall, are going to quickly piss it away. CERB parties rife with drugs, alcohol, and stupidity have been a definite thing.

I spent ninety percent of my money on wine, women and song and just wasted the other ten percent.

Ronnie Hawkins

 

[Loachman]

Good luck with that.

There is a well connected, vocal group at the top of most band structures that jealously guards their power.

I know.

 

[lenaitch]

Political lack of will at all levels & all parties notwithstanding, I'm going to guess there's also more geography in play in NW Ontario (40+ communities in an area the size of France) when you compare province-to-province, but I stand to be corrected.

And if France was muskeg.

When a mine/mill with a company town closes, so does the company town.



Best case, they do.

Which is the reason why, in Ontario anyway, the government will no longer approve permanent settlements around new mines, because they are stuck servicing the infrastructure. Any new mine that is not without a reasonable distance of an existing community (Victor, Detour, Musslewhite, etc.) are just modular with itinerate shifts.

One problem with youth leaving an isolated reserve is it becomes a dispora of mostly unskilled people with limited social supports, much like what already happens in many large urban centres, and the first nation societies have an increasingly weaker ability connect with the land they claim as their traditional territory.

One hundred and fifty-odd years ago, they primarily lived a nomadic or semi-nomadic, land-based, season-influenced lifestyle. Now they live in houses. In terms of social anthropology, that is lightning fast.

 

[OldSolduer]

This Was well said

And if France was muskeg.


Which is the reason why, in Ontario anyway, the government will no longer approve permanent settlements around new mines, because they are stuck servicing the infrastructure. Any new mine that is not without a reasonable distance of an existing community (Victor, Detour, Musslewhite, etc.) are just modular with itinerate shifts.

One problem with youth leaving an isolated reserve is it becomes a dispora of mostly unskilled people with limited social supports, much like what already happens in many large urban centres, and the first nation societies have an increasingly weaker ability connect with the land they claim as their traditional territory.

One hundred and fifty-odd years ago, they primarily lived a nomadic or semi-nomadic, land-based, season-influenced lifestyle. Now they live in houses. In terms of social anthropology, that is lightning fast.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I'm in favour of unskilled people going to where they can acquire skills and work and pursue their own lives; advancement isn't a "problem". Whether or not the communities they leave lose "connection with the land" or vanish entirely is irrelevant. It's a hell of a thing to create a system of carrots and sticks that nudges people into remaining trapped between the stone age and the space age.

 

[YZT580]

And if France was muskeg.


Which is the reason why, in Ontario anyway, the government will no longer approve permanent settlements around new mines, because they are stuck servicing the infrastructure. Any new mine that is not without a reasonable distance of an existing community (Victor, Detour, Musslewhite, etc.) are just modular with itinerate shifts.

One problem with youth leaving an isolated reserve is it becomes a dispora of mostly unskilled people with limited social supports, much like what already happens in many large urban centres, and the first nation societies have an increasingly weaker ability connect with the land they claim as their traditional territory.

One hundred and fifty-odd years ago, they primarily lived a nomadic or semi-nomadic, land-based, season-influenced lifestyle. Now they live in houses. In terms of social anthropology, that is lightning fast.

Which perhaps is one reason that the governments of the day thought that bringing the children out and giving them a 'white' education would be the best thing for them. Good intentions maybe rotten execution definitely.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Which perhaps is one reason that the governments of the day thought that bringing the children out and giving them a 'white' education would be the best thing for them. Good intentions maybe rotten execution definitely.

Had it just been education, then they would have achieved much of their goals, instead they went with a social version of the scorched earth and also restricted the FN to their reserve needing permission from the Indian agent to leave. So get your "white education" but we are not going to allow you to use it.

 

[lenaitch]

I'm in favour of unskilled people going to where they can acquire skills and work and pursue their own lives; advancement isn't a "problem". Whether or not the communities they leave lose "connection with the land" or vanish entirely is irrelevant. It's a hell of a thing to create a system of carrots and sticks that nudges people into remaining trapped between the stone age and the space age.

Perhaps if they (the First Nations) had any say in the matter it would have gone better.

There is a line from a movie - I don't know if it has any historical basis - that said the goal of the British Empire was to make "the whole world England". It certainly wasn't alone in the age of exploration and expansion, they were just particularly good at it. It seems cultural sensitivity wasn't in vogue.

 

[CBH99]

Had it just been education, then they would have achieved much of their goals, instead they went with a social version of the scorched earth and also restricted the FN to their reserve needing permission from the Indian agent to leave. So get your "white education" but we are not going to allow you to use it.

Not allowed to use the “white education” they were forced to get, by law.

But also completely alienated from their own culture as they could not practice their own languages or cultural traditions.

(I read a lot on residential schools the other night as my neighbour & I were sitting in my house chatting over some tea. He is an elderly gentleman, quite pleasant & smart - and he had honestly never heard of them. And was shocked to find out what they were, etc)

 

[Brad Sallows]

Perhaps if they (the First Nations) had any say in the matter it would have gone better.

I doubt it. Movement from the land into cities and from the cities of the past into the cities of the future is ongoing and disruptive for almost all people. Two generations ago, my ancestors were very attached to lifestyles of "the land" (and "the sea"). Not so much now. Anyone who wants that is welcome to it, but no-one should be chained to it.

 

[OldSolduer]

(I read a lot on residential schools the other night as my neighbour & I were sitting in my house chatting over some tea. He is an elderly gentleman, quite pleasant & smart - and he had honestly never heard of them. And was shocked to find out what they were, etc)

And some people are not aware of the Holocaust of WW II.

 

[lenaitch]

Not allowed to use the “white education” they were forced to get, by law.

But also completely alienated from their own culture as they could not practice their own languages or cultural traditions.

(I read a lot on residential schools the other night as my neighbour & I were sitting in my house chatting over some tea. He is an elderly gentleman, quite pleasant & smart - and he had honestly never heard of them. And was shocked to find out what they were, etc)

The primary intent of the education wasn't the readin', writin' and 'rithmatic part, it was to make them 'not Indian' and 'not pagan'.

I doubt it. Movement from the land into cities and from the cities of the past into the cities of the future is ongoing and disruptive for almost all people. Two generations ago, my ancestors were very attached to lifestyles of "the land" (and "the sea"). Not so much now. Anyone who wants that is welcome to it, but no-one should be chained to it.

Or forced from it.

 

[YZT580]

remember you are talking about a 19th century mentality that we imported from Britain. They reasoned the same way with regards to any resident of the British Isles that wasn't Anglo-Saxon origin. Also dig up the history on the children/orphans that were brought over from England and adopted by families particularly in Ontario and Quebec where they were put to work. And that was right up until the end of WW2. Their way of getting around the anti-slavery act. The Indigenous folks were treated no differently. All bad but not racist.

 

[mariomike]

64 more pages of Canada's First Nations discussion,

Canada's First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, etc. (merged)

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/stats/rail/2018/sser-ssro-2018.html Only 8% result in derailment ... on main lines - +50% on non-main lines according to the same source. I'll leave those more expert to explain the difference between the types of lines.

army.ca

and an interesting report on the technology used.

How the ground-penetrating technology used to locate unmarked graves is both amazing and complex

The reality of ground-penetrating radar is both more amazing, and also less clear, than the average person might expect

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[Brad Sallows]

remember you are talking about a 19th century mentality that we imported from Britain.

It was ubiquitous. Boarding schools weren't invented by and limited to only the UK and its offshoots. Think about the way people have been treated in various institutions over time - boarding schools, orphanages, asylums. General neglect and abuse were widespread, and slowly diminished with time and improving sensibilities.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

One very large recent project I worked on hung up on what might have been a grave, clearly post contact as the local bands put their dead on platforms prior. There were two different bands claiming it and they didn't want to dig it up to confirm whether it was a grave or not. In that particular area the soil was acidic, so there would unlikely be any bones, perhaps some shoes, belt buckle.

Meanwhile in the UK HS2: service held for 60,000 to be exhumed at Euston burial ground

 

[quadrapiper]

Leaving the question of whether or not the First Nations would want this aside, are there any CAF assets which might be useful in this work?

 

[Remius]

Leaving the question of whether or not the First Nations would want this aside, are there any CAF assets which might be useful in this work?

I believe there is a casualty identification coordinator at DND that deals with that sort of thing, like when WW1 remains are found and need identification. I’m not sure if that would be the more appropriate asset to be used or if other civilian government services would be better placed. I’m think maybe the RCMP forensics lab maybe. Things like identifying causes of death, DNA matching to families etc. It also really depends on whether the community even wants this done. I think it was in Manitoba where they found 80 in a mass grave and the community opted to just let them all Rest In Peace. The very first step is to confirm what the wishes of the indegenous communities would be. I suspect we’ll see more of these but my feeling is it should be on a community by community basis.