forces.gc.ca email address?

[armyvern]

It's not entirely incorrect, most SM don't have time to download and print all 4 Vol of QR&O, especially after every change. I do agree the world can work without, but it doesn't, its here and its not going anywhere.

Wow. You've obviously not been in for long. It wasn't so many years ago that "Publication Amendment Sheets" were kept in the front of publications...(they still are) so that when you made either a simple ink amendment ot a pub, or replaced only the pages that required replacing, it was recorded in the front of the pub on that sheet.

There is no requirement to massacre a million trees to amend your pub hard copies. No time? That takes work and upkeep? No excuse. Legally, it only needs to be downloaded and printed once.  After that it's mere maintenance and upkeep...a fact of life some people need to get used to as the hard copy IS the legal copy...not the electronic version. They even make it really easy for you to maintain your hard copies these days...by listing the amendments separately (even throwing big bright "new" icons next to the new ones so you know which one you have to reprint!!). Yes the CF does this for you. You just click on "print." Take the new one off the printer, replace the old one with the new one in the hardcopy of the pub...and note it on the "Amendments" page. Takes approx 2 minutes of ones time. Not too much to give up to ensure your troops have access is it? It happens all the time.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/intro_e.asp

I'll quote:

The Canadian Forces Administrative Orders (CFAO) collection is provided in electronic format on the Internet for the convenience of users. For legal purposes the paper copy is still considered the official copy. Please be advised that the CFAO collection is in the process of being superseded by the Defence Administrative Orders and Directives (DAODs), manuals and/or other publications, or are being cancelled as required. As such, the CFAO collection is not being amended, and no new CFAOs are being written. As a courtesy to the users, as CFAOs are superseded the appropriate link to the new document will be provided. However, these links will not be updated.

So now we know that it is indeed the paper copy that is considered "legal." We also know that the CFAOs are being superseded by the DAODs. So I'll include the link to the DAODs so that you can scroll down to the bottom of the opening page and see just how easy they make it for you to print that amendment...and include it in the legal hard copy that should be located somewhere within your Unit lines already.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/intro_e.asp

 

[284_226]

The hard copy of CFAOs is the legal copy if and only if the hard copy is the one provided via the CF Publications Depot and maintained through the Amendment List, from way back when they used to actually provide paper copies.  It really doesn't make any sense for the paper copy to be the legal one if it's still warm from being printed directly from the electronic version.

Try to hold back on the disdainful comments like "Wow.You've obviously not been in for long.", when ArtyNewbie lists 7 years as a NavComm.  A 7-year NavComm has probably done more pen & ink/page-substitution amendments to Communications, Tactical, and Security publications than any other trade in the CF.  Some pubs are amended on a weekly basis.  I'm sure he knows how a pub is amended.

 

[armyvern]

I'm sure he does 284_226, just as I'm quite sure he knows how to change the printer settings (seeing as how he has frequently referred to his previous experience in 'network control') to print only the page with the amendment on it vice the whole pub again. That's what my comments were in ref to.

Re-read his comments again: "especially after every change."

I am also quite aware of the pubs depot and what it does and did. I actually used to work the pubs section...

 

[241]

The CFs can't expect you to have a computer and internet at home.

Max

I never said the CF should expect anyone to have a computer at home, all I was saying is that there are simply not enough resources to make giving every member of a unit DWAN access and still allow the leadership of said unit ample access to the computers to ensure that training and admin can go on uninterrupted, so as a solution to the one argument brought up by artynewbie (I think it was him) as to why everyone should have access to a DWAN account I was simply mentioning how many people have access to CFAOs, DAODs, and QR&Os at home thus there is no need for everyone to have the access, not to mention that you cant walk a block down a street anywhere without tripping over an internet cafe that those 5% (give or take) that don't have a computer and/or internet access at home can use.

Basically what I am saying is that it is not feesable to supply an entire unit with an account when there are only a dozen or so computers available.  There was talk in Red Deer here of a computer lab sort of thing being set up where members with out a office/computer could access the DWAN but that made it as far as a sign on the door and a few extra LAN ports in the room, so not a priority, at least not around here.

 

[SupersonicMax]

You don't need the number of computers to be equal to the number of members.  As long as you have access to the DWAN (setting up an account isn't that complicated according to the IT guys here), you have access to the docs, regardless of how many computers there are in the unit.  I think we had 3 DWAN computers for 10 pilots at the Sqn (plus some reservists). 

An other solution would have to have a General Net computer (we had 2 at the Sqn)

Max

 

[Pte_Martin]

The CFs can't expect you to have a computer and internet at home.

Max

No but friends, internet cafe, and library are some of the ways you can get on the net

 

[SupersonicMax]

No but friends, internet cafe, and library are some of the ways you can get on the net

Sure, but the CFs are required to provide you with the tools to accomplish your work.  Access to those pubs is deemed necessary to accomplish your work.  They can't expect you to use your internet at home, go to an internet cafe, a library or see friends in order to access them.

Max

 

[armyvern]

Sure, but the CFs are required to provide you with the tools to accomplish your work.  Access to those pubs is deemed necessary to accomplish your work.  They can't expect you to use your internet at home, go to an internet cafe, a library or see friends in order to access them.

Max

And they don't require you to do any of that. Nowhere is it written that the access has to be electronic. No where. Most Units I know still keep that hard copy available for their personnel with no computer access.

It's simple to do, and to update. Like I said before the CF even makes it very easy to do this these days.

Geez, I'd hate to actually have to pack up and go somewhere these days with no computer access because, judging by some of the remarks in this thread, we couldn't do our jobs without those darn computers.  God forbid the servers go down for a week or two; god forbid we have another massive power outage in Ontario.  Somehow, I just don't think that the excuse of "our computers weren't working" or "we couldn't access our computers" is going to fly. It hasn't so far.

To insinuate that the CF or it's members can not perform their duties unless immediate and full access is available to all it's members is absolutely false.

 

[NCS_Eng]

Geez, I'd hate to actually have to pack up and go somewhere these days with no computer access because, judging by some of the remarks in this thread, we couldn't do our jobs without those darn computers.  God forbid the servers go down for a week or two; god forbid we have another massive power outage in Ontario.  Somehow, I just don't think that the excuse of "our computers weren't working" or "we couldn't access our computers" is going to fly. It hasn't so far.

To insinuate that the CF or it's members can not perform their duties unless immediate and full access is available to all it's members is absolutely false.

While I agree with you that not everyone needs full computer access, the higher up you get both in rank and in positioning (especially in the cubical farms of NDHQ), the more computer access becomes important. Some of us do need access to a computer to do our jobs. The amount of productivity loss if D or C-net net access was significantly impacted for even a day would be extreme. A two week outage would be catastrophic.

Like it or not more and more of our daily lives [and I'm just speaking for support/administration/staff work here...] revolve around computer access and to downplay its significance does no one any good.

Now the people at the pointy end of the organization maybe not so much, but even still computers and networks (Centrixis) are moving into combat roles in a big way. We were recently denied permission to have a 3 hour network outage (on a saturday) here in Esquimalt due to ramifications all the way over in Kandahar. As an armed forces we rely on computer networks in a big way.

 

[armyvern]

Like it or not more and more of our daily lives [and I'm just speaking for support/administration/staff work here...] revolve around computer access and to downplay its significance does no one any good.

Now the people at the pointy end of the organization maybe not so much, but even still computers and networks (Centrixis) are moving into combat roles in a big way. We were recently denied permission to have a 3 hour network outage (on a saturday) here in Esquimalt due to ramifications all the way over in Kandahar. As an armed forces we rely on computer networks in a big way.

Make no mistake about it; I am not downplaying the significance that computers play currently in the CF. However, if we have lost site of the fact that if they do go down we must still carry on with our jobs, we have a huge problem. Perhaps, it is time for us to get back-to-the-basics and ensure that every Sup Tech (for example) etc knows exactly what a "bowling sheet" or SRC card is, because be guaranteed that they will use them at some point (they are used during Op Boxtop still and are included in fly-away kits for exactly this reason as well as rapid response to austere locations ) and if we have indeed ceased teaching our personnel the basics of how to accomplish their jobs without that computer, then we are failing no one but ourselves.

Less than a decade ago, the vast majority of the CF was able to function quite well manually, and if in the future is required to function manually again due to such a power outage scenario, it is our duty to be able to do so; especially so if such an outage is caused by a natural disaster which requires our being relied upon to perform our duties to Canadian citizens.

And, hopefully then, that big earthquake never happens out there in BC if Esquimault can't function for a mere three hours without it's computers. That's actually a scary thought.

Edited to add:

An even scarier thought is that a power outage, and thus lack of computers, in Esquimault would have ramifications for personnel deployed in Khandahar. This should never be allowed to be the case.

 

[Yrys]

ensure that every Sup Tech (for example) etc knows exactly what a "bowling sheet" or SRC card is

Less than a decade ago, the vast majority of the CF was able to function quite well manually, and if in the future is required to function manually again due to such a power outage scenario, it is our duty to be able to do so; especially so if such an outage is caused by a natural disaster which requires our being relied upon to perform our duties to Canadian citizens.

[Civi comment : they 're playing bowling when the comp is down ? W W, must take a lost of space for the alley ... ]

Speaking of fonctionning manually, with the wind blowing toward terrorism nowadays, and as it could be in the plan
of some of them, it's seems to me that it's a good idea to at least know someone that coulp help work without internet or computer...

Add: sorry for any mistake, can't seem to make the spell checker work on a Mac...

 

[armyvern]

Speaking of fonctionning manually, with the wind blowing toward terrorism nowadays, and as it could be in the plan
of some of them, it's seems to me that it's a good idea to at least know someone that coulp help work without internet or computer...

Which is exactly why I'm of the opinion that we need to weaponize space to protect those satellites up there ... but that's a whole 'nother thread!! 

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

The hard copy of CFAOs is the legal copy if and only if the hard copy is the one provided via the CF Publications Depot and maintained through the Amendment List, from way back when they used to actually provide paper copies.  It really doesn't make any sense for the paper copy to be the legal one if it's still warm from being printed directly from the electronic version.

Try to hold back on the disdainful comments like "Wow.You've obviously not been in for long.", when ArtyNewbie lists 7 years as a NavComm.  A 7-year NavComm has probably done more pen & ink/page-substitution amendments to Communications, Tactical, and Security publications than any other trade in the CF.  Some pubs are amended on a weekly basis.  I'm sure he knows how a pub is amended.

Daily in some cases, in fact with the AIG/SIC code book (now the CF Address Help file) and ACP 117 series (Routing indicators (UNCLAS)) the requirement to insert pen and ink corrections has been recinded, and in some cases the paper distribution has ceased completely.

 

[kratz]

I go squirrely when I hear and read comments like Zommie in this day and age.

NRHQ has mandated that all ranks are to have DWAN accounts for Sec Clr puposes, clothing issues ect..

To hear that an OS/AB (Pte) has zero reason to access the DIN is a type of blind logic that I can not subscribe to.

 

[armyvern]

Daily in some cases, in fact with the AIG/SIC code book (now the CF Address Help file) and ACP 117 series (Routing indicators (UNCLAS)) the requirement to insert pen and ink corrections has been recinded, and in some cases the paper distribution has ceased completely.

Which stops absolutely nobody from downloading a hard copy so that the troops have access.

 

[armyvern]

NRHQ has mandated that all ranks are to have DWAN accounts for Sec Clr puposes, clothing issues ect..

You can delete clothing from your above. The troops don't need access to get their clothing. If they need access to their Logistik account they can go into Clothing Stores and access via a computer there...or use one of the many Logistik Kiosks that were set up on bases around country for exactly this purpose.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

Which stops absolutely nobody from downloading a hard copy so that the troops have access.

this may be true, but in the case of the CF Adress Help file each record must be printed individualy, each AIG, each Postal address/PLA Address, each SIC code, makes this particular pub very difficult to maintain a hard copy of, exactly why ADM IM reccomends it not be done. It is far less time consuming to give a Pte/OS an account and point them in the direction of the pub than it is print the pub, maintain the pub, and then pay a Class B soldier/sailor/air pers to track and update the pubs.

 

[George Wallace]

It is far less time consuming to give a Pte/OS an account and point them in the direction of the pub than it is print the pub, maintain the pub, and then pay a Class B soldier/sailor/air pers to track and update the pubs.

???

You have totally lost me here.  What savings in Time, materials, monies, etc. do you think we will have using your method?  How many forests do we have to kill?

 

[kratz]

My example of clothing was not a negative against the great work of stores folks.

My point is that the era of job specific computers for most areas of the CF are on the way out. With the revamping of the national gateway, the intent is for anyone with a @forces.gc.ca account to now access their files from any DWAN computer anywhere. For example, I am heading home next weekend for a job. During that time, If I need to access files, all I need to do is log into a DIN computer and I will be capable of seeing all of my files as if I was sitting in my own office.

To limit access to a certain rank or Regular Force only woould be a progressive step back .

 

[284_226]

???

You have totally lost me here.  What savings in Time, materials, monies, etc. do you think we will have using your method?  How many forests do we have to kill?

Yes, I think you got the viewpoints crossed somewhere along the way.  ArtyNewbie is more or less of the opinion that a paperless office is the way to go.  I pretty much feel the same way - the cost related to creating a DWAN account and a small amount of network storage (Q: drive) is insignificant in relation to what it costs to maintain paper copies of everything under the sun.

I'm personally in favour of making sure everyone (reserve Ptes included) has free, unimpeded access to Regulations, Orders and Directives via a DWAN account.  To restrict that in any way just might be enough to allow someone to justifiably claim that ignorance of the law is indeed a valid excuse.  If that means some Reserve COs need to increase their IT budgets, so be it.