Foreign Workers: Political/Labour effects (split from 2024 UK rioting thread)

[Czech_pivo]

And when your Dad bought an average house in, I am guessing, the 1960s, that house cost closer to 5,400 than 540,000 and he could get a CMHC mortgage on one salary. Line work at the auto plants was particularly valued as a career.

60 years later and we have added two zeroes to the price of a house.

Meanwhile household income of 78,000? Both parents working?

Remove two zeroes to drop 78,000 to 780.
Divide 780 by two and you get 390.

50 weeks a year.
40 hours a week
2000 hours a year

390/2000 = .195

I can guarantee you that in 1965 nobody, least of all an auto worker, was working for 20 cents an hour.
AI tells me that the average wage in Ontario in 1966, the year we came over, was $95.65 a week or $2.39 an hour.
That sounds about right based on what I know of my Dad's experience arriving from the UK into a professional position.
In 1972, my first SIN job was throwing bales of hay for the minimum farm wage of $1.00 an hour.

There is no one single thing that has got our kids into this position. This is the result of a lot of unintended consequences resulting from good intentions and bad decisions.

Is there a fix? Beyond the inclination to put somebody, anybody, up against a wall.

Yes, all very interesting and very depressing overall.

 

[Czech_pivo]

One of the "good intentions, bad decisions" I referred to was telling people to have fewer kids to save the planet. Fewer kids meant fewer workers which encouraged more automation which put even the smaller number of kids out of work.

Meanwhile fewer kids meant less pension support and fewer people to manage bedpans in old folks homes. We had to start importing people from places who hadn't got the memo about having fewer kids to save the planet.

Much of our traditional industrial and manufacturing base, as you suggest, has now been automated. The jobs that are left are in Starbucks and old folks homes.

....

One other thing, in my entry above I said that nobody in the 1960s was working for 20 cents an hour. Those Mexicans and Jamaicans that are working the fields round Leamington today? Their grandparents were working those same fields picking tobacco and tomatoes for 20 cents an hour.

One line of argument - not necessarily I agree with 100% - is that feminism in the 1960s lead to an overall growth in the labour pool by greater than 40%, which in turn drove down real wage growth.....beginning the end of a single breadwinner and a homemaker.

There are traits of that I do I agree with but its too simple an answer overall to point to and say, 'see, this is the whole problem'.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I feel his pain. Youngest child by a decent stretch = parents only dependant at time of application + parents owning a farm = nothing for IKN

As it was made clear to us all that we were paying our own way (with other "in kind" type supports) that was a kick in the teeth, but I had a feeling it was coming having sat in on my siblings conversations with my parents and heard how the formula impacted them differently.

Those are legitimate concerns, but such is the transition to adulthood. If nothing else a co-signed LOC gives you visibility and a fantastic vehicle for the conversations needed to gradually take off the financial training wheels off and push him out of the nest. Interest is an expense he'd have to budget for to be paid out of his summer wages.

It then becomes a shell game

If he calculates that he needs to borrow 7k on a LOC for the remainder of the 25k/yr it costs him to attend Uni away from home, he then has to factor in the interest per month costs on the LOC for the 8 months of the year that he's not working. This in turn means that he may have to borrow 7,500$/yr, use the 7k for school and hold back the other 500$ to use to make the monthly interest payments for 8 months that he's in school and not working on the 7,500$ LOC. The following year, he then might need to borrow 8k for school, which only 7k goes to school and the other 1,000$ is used over 8 months while in school to pay for the larger interest payments on the now 15,500$ LOC. This then goes on for another 2yrs, with the banks making a tidy sum over the 4yrs that he needs the LOC from the interest only payments that he's made. Finally after 4yrs, if a miracle happens and he finds a job directly after school, he can then begin making more than just interest payments on the 32,000$ he's borrowed, made interest only payments on for the last 4yrs and can start a life.

This whole concept is complete BS. The government expects middle, upper middle and upper class to fund 80-90% of the 100k over 4yrs it now costs for a university educate with no opportunity for them to receive a government sponsored loan BUT it doesn't give the parents ANY rights in having access to their kids educational information because the kids are over 18yr and an adult. Classic case of suck and blow at the same time.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We have the money to cover all our school costs, but we opted for them to get Student loans/grants, stick the money into safe investments and collect the interest on it, then we make sure they return it.

 

[IKnowNothing]

It then becomes a shell game

If he calculates that he needs to borrow 7k on a LOC for the remainder of the 25k/yr it costs him to attend Uni away from home, he then has to factor in the interest per month costs on the LOC for the 8 months of the year that he's not working. This in turn means that he may have to borrow 7,500$/yr, use the 7k for school and hold back the other 500$ to use to make the monthly interest payments for 8 months that he's in school and not working on the 7,500$ LOC. The following year, he then might need to borrow 8k for school, which only 7k goes to school and the other 1,000$ is used over 8 months while in school to pay for the larger interest payments on the now 15,500$ LOC. This then goes on for another 2yrs, with the banks making a tidy sum over the 4yrs that he needs the LOC from the interest only payments that he's made. Finally after 4yrs, if a miracle happens and he finds a job directly after school, he can then begin making more than just interest payments on the 32,000$ he's borrowed, made interest only payments on for the last 4yrs and can start a life.

Whether OSAP loan or LOC, in both situations he's coming out with 30k +/- 10% in debt. There is a greater delta to be found in other choices he can make than there is in that 4k cost of borrowing, and the support of family with the means of being non-OSAP qualifying far outweighs that.

We have the money to cover all our school costs, but we opted for them to get Student loans/grants, stick the money into safe investments and collect the interest on it, then we make sure they return it.

My plan is for them to have them plan to go it alone with in kind support (scheduled grocery drops , rides/ vehicle access etc), and surprise them during G12 with a 1st year covered via RESP - IF they have their shit together wrt to executing the plan. I think there is tremendous value in the independence learned in "figuring it out" from 16-22, but my hope is to be in a position to make them (at least) partially whole afterword's. A lot of water to go under the bridge between now and then but I'd love to have them learn the lessons without having to start adulthood with that millstone. But- I'm also hoping they opt for community college or a trade.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Keep in mind the bureaucracy of educational institutions is utterly confusing and many admin staff don't know the options available. My wife has had to point them to relevant sections of the regs and of their own policies to show that it is indeed possible to do X. Having a lawyer, who has been in the educational system for 8 years is a bonus. Many of the staff are not used to having someone that stands their ground and has done their homework. they are used to pushing confused and easily manipulated students around.

 

[YZT580]

One of the "good intentions, bad decisions" I referred to was telling people to have fewer kids to save the planet. Fewer kids meant fewer workers which encouraged more automation which put even the smaller number of kids out of work.

Meanwhile fewer kids meant less pension support and fewer people to manage bedpans in old folks homes. We had to start importing people from places who hadn't got the memo about having fewer kids to save the planet.

Much of our traditional industrial and manufacturing base, as you suggest, has now been automated. The jobs that are left are in Starbucks and old folks homes.

....

One other thing, in my entry above I said that nobody in the 1960s was working for 20 cents an hour. Those Mexicans and Jamaicans that are working the fields round Leamington today? Their grandparents were working those same fields picking tobacco and tomatoes for 20 cents an hour.

what isn't happening is parents encouraging kids to get out with a lawn mower and look for work as mentioned a bunch of entries ago. Costs 50 or 60 bucks to have your lawn cut yet pickups with tractors and trailers are all over the neighbourhood. The average lawn takes less than an hour to cut and uses only a few ounces of gas so the overhead is negligible. Instead we have upped their allowance so they now hang out at Starbucks. Our kids were all working by 14. We didn't order it, they wanted the cash and we weren't supplying it. Baby sitting is out: need a certificate for that now. Ford didn't help here in Ontario with his beer in stores legislation. Kids can't get jobs in grocery stores or variety stores because the law forbids minors from selling alcohol products. Unintended consequences?

 

[Kirkhill]

what isn't happening is parents encouraging kids to get out with a lawn mower and look for work as mentioned a bunch of entries ago. Costs 50 or 60 bucks to have your lawn cut yet pickups with tractors and trailers are all over the neighbourhood. The average lawn takes less than an hour to cut and uses only a few ounces of gas so the overhead is negligible. Instead we have upped their allowance so they now hang out at Starbucks. Our kids were all working by 14. We didn't order it, they wanted the cash and we weren't supplying it. Baby sitting is out: need a certificate for that now. Ford didn't help here in Ontario with his beer in stores legislation. Kids can't get jobs in grocery stores or variety stores because the law forbids minors from selling alcohol products. Unintended consequences?

Unintended consequences? Yes.
Bad kids? No.

Kid with a lawn mower?
Or a licenced business paying taxes, covering insurances and other mandated costs?

Look up "lemon aid stand shut down".

Employment standards rules – Youth employment laws

Employees under 18 years old have specific rules under Alberta’s laws.

www.alberta.ca

If we had youth employment laws when I was delivering papers, babysitting, trimming christmas trees and mucking out byres I was blissfully unaware of them. Did work. Got cash.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

what isn't happening is parents encouraging kids to get out with a lawn mower and look for work as mentioned a bunch of entries ago. Costs 50 or 60 bucks to have your lawn cut yet pickups with tractors and trailers are all over the neighbourhood. The average lawn takes less than an hour to cut and uses only a few ounces of gas so the overhead is negligible. Instead we have upped their allowance so they now hang out at Starbucks. Our kids were all working by 14. We didn't order it, they wanted the cash and we weren't supplying it. Baby sitting is out: need a certificate for that now. Ford didn't help here in Ontario with his beer in stores legislation. Kids can't get jobs in grocery stores or variety stores because the law forbids minors from selling alcohol products. Unintended consequences?

My daughter made a lot of money babysitting and now getting paid to do the tech for the Churches Sunday service and managing the livestream. We gave them a very small allowance.

 

[Furniture]

what isn't happening is parents encouraging kids to get out with a lawn mower and look for work as mentioned a bunch of entries ago. Costs 50 or 60 bucks to have your lawn cut yet pickups with tractors and trailers are all over the neighbourhood. The average lawn takes less than an hour to cut and uses only a few ounces of gas so the overhead is negligible. Instead we have upped their allowance so they now hang out at Starbucks. Our kids were all working by 14. We didn't order it, they wanted the cash and we weren't supplying it. Baby sitting is out: need a certificate for that now. Ford didn't help here in Ontario with his beer in stores legislation. Kids can't get jobs in grocery stores or variety stores because the law forbids minors from selling alcohol products. Unintended consequences?

Youth unemployment isn't about mowing lawns for cash under the table, and clerks can still work in grocery stores. If you look closely some aisles are marked for alcohol sales, and some aren't.

The government importing lots of cheap labor from developing countries has more impact than Dougie making it easier for adults to buy beer.

 

[YZT580]

Youth unemployment isn't about mowing lawns for cash under the table, and clerks can still work in grocery stores. If you look closely some aisles are marked for alcohol sales, and some aren't.

The government importing lots of cheap labor from developing countries has more impact than Dougie making it easier for adults to buy beer.

it isn't cheap labour anymore. Minimum wage laws apply to the immigrants as well. Your statement shows how far we have fallen: it is no longer a kid working towards his education but someone breaking the law and soliciting cash under the table. SAD. You are correct. Clerks can still work in grocery stores and our local facilities are maintaining their current employees however all future employees must be 19 so my grandkids are sol. Ford in Oakville used to hire dozens of students every summer. Hell, they even funded the student drivers courses in the H.S. and supplied the cars. Now their payroll is half what is was then and student hires are few and far between AND much of the production is off-shore. Taxes and energy costs have guaranteed that.
And chances are, that kid with the lawnmower was cutting the lawns of people who would never have dreamed of hiring a professional to do it: the kid next door well that was a different issue entirely. I read about the lemon debacle by the way. To me it sounded like a officious piece of shit who liked to show his power.

 

[Furniture]

it isn't cheap labour anymore. Minimum wage laws apply to the immigrants as well. Your statement shows how far we have fallen: it is no longer a kid working towards his education but someone breaking the law and soliciting cash under the table. SAD. You are correct. Clerks can still work in grocery stores and our local facilities are maintaining their current employees however all future employees must be 19 so my grandkids are sol. Ford in Oakville used to hire dozens of students every summer. Hell, they even funded the student drivers courses in the H.S. and supplied the cars. Now their payroll is half what is was then and student hires are few and far between AND much of the production is off-shore. Taxes and energy costs have guaranteed that.
And chances are, that kid with the lawnmower was cutting the lawns of people who would never have dreamed of hiring a professional to do it: the kid next door well that was a different issue entirely. I read about the lemon debacle by the way. To me it sounded like a officious piece of shit who liked to show his power.

Minimum wage is the legal minimum an employer can pay, not necessarily the minimum wage an employee will accept. Importing labour from developing countries means they are more likely to accept the minimum, not know their rights, as well as be older and more responsible. All of that artificially tips the scales against local kids.

Minors can work in a grocery store, as long as their job isn't handling or selling the alcoholic drinks. See my point above about older TFWs/international students.

My point about kids working for petty cash is that they aren't related to the topic at hand. The issue is with young adults who can't find work.

 

[Kirkhill]

I doubt that a shortage of lawn mowers and newspaper routes is endemic across the OECD.

.... Across the 36 wealthier countries of the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), the middle class “looks increasingly like a boat in rocky waters”, according to a report by that organisation.

Critically, home ownership, the ultimate symbol of middle class respectability, is fading out of sight for many. In the United States, the chance of middle-class earners moving up to the top rungs of the earnings ladder has dropped by approximately 20 per cent since the early 1980s, while life expectancy in the US has been declining.

.... Current economic changes, notably artificial intelligence, seem likely to boost the ranks of the downwardly mobile educated classes. In the US, some 40 per cent of recent graduates are underemployed, working in jobs where their college credentials are essentially worthless. In the UK, roughly a third of young people doubt that they will reach their career goals. In the US, close to half of adults under 30 still live with their parents.

Low unemployment numbers hide the growing percentage of young working class people who now remain outside the labour pool entirely. In Europe, up to a fifth of the population under 30 is neither in school or a job, most resoundingly in Italy, the EU’s third largest economy. In the UK, one out of seven aged under 25 is on the economic sidelines, the highest level in a decade.

New York’s surging new Leftist tide is a chilling warning to the West

Rise in support for Zohran Mamdani illustrates how an alliance of immigrants and the young urban precariat is taking on capitalism

www.telegraph.co.uk

Same hymn book across all 36 congregations...