FREE College Education through the CF!

[armychickenlittle]

The best kept secret in the CF is that you can get a two-year college education FREE, with a salary starting you at just under $30 grand a year for select trades in the Army, Navy and Air Force. If you are interested in going to college but maybe can't afford it or would like to try the Forces, you should call a Recruiting Centre and get more info. The trades that offer this college program are:
Army: Vehicle Tech (you would take a two-yr mechanics crse at an approved college)
and Land Communications & Information Systems Tech (LCIS Tech), (you would take a two-yr diploma in Electronics Engineering Tech at, for example, Algonquin College)
In the Navy: Naval Electronics Technician (Acoustic, Comms or Tactical), (for this you would take a two-yr Electronics Engineering Tech crse
Navy also: Naval Weapons Tech and Marine Engineering Mechanic (both at the Marine Institute in St John's, Newfoundland)
Air Force: Avionics Systems Tech (also the two-yr Electronics Engr program)
This program is amazing, offers a great salary (after you graduate you get acting Cpl or Leading Seaman, which means a pay hike to $50 grand + a year!) and you don't owe any student loan money!  You do owe the CF some time, though. For a two-year program, you would incur obligatory service of three years following graduation. That's five years of your life, during which time you've gotten a free education, been paid the whole time and gotten some amazing work experience, not to mention the travel opportunities (especially with the Navy) and the friends you'll make. Call a recruiter. 1-800-856-8488. If it's after hours, leave a msg. They'll call you back. In case they don't, call again. Keep calling. This is too good to pass up.
I may not have covered all the options, and of course, there are other approved schools besides Algonquin. There are schools all across Canada for most of the above trades.

 

[Klc]

Are you sure about LCIS Tech? I was told my training would consist of POET plus OJT, and that this would be in Kingston.

 

[armychickenlittle]

Quite sure. I'll verify today and get back tonight. Also ATIS is part of this same program, but this trade isn't in such high demand as LCIS. If you do not choose the civilian college option, the most common way to do your trg is exactly what you will be doing, the POET trg in Kingston, then the trade trg right after.

 

[FredDaHead]

I think marketting the CF as a way to get a free education is about the stupidest thing we can do. Sure, we need people, but do we really need people whose sole concern is not spending their own money to get an education and a cushy civvie job in five years?

How can we know that they'll do their job and stick with it, if the fecal matter collides with the air moving rotating contraption? We can't. They'll probably care about themselves too much and get other people hurt or killed, maybe even themselves.

 

[battleaxe]

You do owe the CF some time, though.

So, it's not free.  While there is no investment in cash, obligatory service is a price you will pay.
 
Read through this site  thouroughly to find out how high that price can be.  Also note, at the same time, how rewarding the military experience can be. Weigh the pros against the cons, delve deep and ask yourself some serious questions about dedication and commitment, and then make a decision on whether or not to join.

My question would have to be- Did you have any interest in joining before you found out about the education benefits?

 

[FredDaHead]

So, it's not free.  While there is no investment in cash, obligatory service is a price you will pay.
 
Read through this site  thouroughly to find out how high that price can be.  Also note, at the same time, how rewarding the military experience can be. Weigh the pros against the cons, delve deep and ask yourself some serious questions about dedication and commitment, and then make a decision on whether or not to join.

After three years, one would barely be qualified in their job. The chances of actually going out and seeing some "action" are fairly low. Besides, look at the US: telling kids all about the benefits without telling them "well, you also might end up in combat" yields a LOT of "consciencious objectors" and other assorted cowards.

And I never said the military experience isn't rewarding; all I said was marketing the CF as a ploy to get free education is a mistake.

My question would have to be- Did you have any interest in joining before you found out about the education benefits?

While I understand that you're trying to make a point, I REALLY don't appreciate being called a hypocrite. I've wanted to be in the military for just about all my conscious life--at least as early as I can remember--so the educational benefits, while helpful, didn't change anything. I was going to go to university no matter what, and I also wanted to be in the military no matter what; "free" education only put the two together into a nice deal.

 

[HItorMiss]

yields a LOT of "conscientious objectors" and other assorted cowards.

Slight hijack but did you really just call conscientious objectors cowards?


On topic, You know what I think marketing it is a great idea because targeting it to the then fence sitter might just be the swing that person needed. Plus what about the student that wants to join but who's family is so dead set against it because that kid wont get an education, now he can set his argument in the context of..."Look Dad/Mom now I can do both education that cost you nothing and my desire to be in the CF, it's win win guys". I know that whenever I address high schools or anything along those line's I push the concept of RMC and all it's benefits while making it clear that nothing is "Free" and that mandatory service is required for a fixed amount of time after completing your degree/diploma.

 

[battleaxe]

Frederick G- I quoted and responded to armychickenlittle's post.  You answered the question I essentially asked that poster.  No offence intended. 
I'm not against the educational benefits offered to those who join-I took advantage of them myself.  I just wanted to point out that they should not be portrayed as free- and that the decision to join should be based on many factors.

 

[FredDaHead]

Slight hijack but did you really just call conscientious objectors cowards??????

No, though I guess I did make it sound that way. What I meant was, you get conscientious objectors who joined but already didn't really want to fight, and cowards who join, get their benefits, and then get out when they're told they have to uphold their end of the bargain. My bad.

On topic, You know what I think marketing it is a great idea because targeting it to the then fence sitter might just be the swing that person needed. Plus what about the student that wants to join but who's family is so dead set against it because that kid wont get an education, now he can set his argument in the context of..."Look Dad/Mom now I can do both education that cost you nothing and my desire to be in the CF, it's win win guys". I know that whenever I address high schools or anything along those line's I push the concept of RMC and all it's benefits while making it clear that nothing is "Free" and that mandatory service is required for a fixed amount of time after completing your degree/diploma.

I'm not against marketing the idea that the CF provide free education; I'm against making it the ONLY marketing point. The way you say you do it, making it clear it's not just a free education and a guaranteed job for a couple of years, is more along the lines of what I think should be done. I don't think "hiding" the fact that you can get a free education would be any better than pushing the free education thing; we need a balance.

Besides, the fence sitter wants to join but has a few objections. What about the guy who doesn't have any interest in joining, but decides to so he doesn't have to spend his own money to get an education?

Frederick G- I quoted and responded to armychickenlittle's post.  You answered the question I essentially asked that poster.  No offence intended. 
I'm not against the educational benefits offered to those who join-I took advantage of them myself.  I just wanted to point out that they should not be portrayed as free- and that the decision to join should be based on many factors.

Hey, I'm taking advantage of those benefits by being here at RMC, so I understand where you were coming from, like I said. And I understand your point; I actually agree with it. I just see the problem as being that we're pushing the "free education" so much we lose sight of the big picture that includes, at best, being "forced" to stay in a job you don't want and, at worse, going overseas and getting hurt.

 

[GAP]

The college education angle might be the deciding point in a lot of cases. There are many who would not qualify for RMC, but are now at the age (early 20's) and point in their life that they have to make a major decision.

Having finished high school, do they join the CF, or do they go to college to get post-secondary training? This offers a third alternative, not counting doing nothing

 

[Remius]

Oh boy.  Chickenlittle brings to light one of the best NCM entry programs in the CF and now we tear it apart with this thread.

There is nothing wrong with highlighting educational benefits, signing bonuses, advantages etc etc etc.  The fact is that we are in a competitive market and we have a lack of personel in key trades.  We need NET techs so bad right now that if we don't start getting our acts together some trades will be at zero in ten years, as in no one in that trade anymore.  So if the CF is marketing the free education and it brings people in the door, so be it.  I'd rather have a few consiensious-objectors get through the system than have a non-effective Navy.  Doctors get a huge signing bonus.  The CF highlights it.  Big deal.  If we get more doctors in to maintain our effectiveness then good.  Oh, and the balance is there.  Applicants are more than briefed on their obligations to the CF, make no mistake about that.

Not everyone joins for Queen and Country.  As long as they serve Queen and Country once they are in I don't care why they joined.  And if they only serve their 1st VIE, so be it.  They lived up to their end of the bargain.   

 

[FredDaHead]

Applicants are more than briefed on their obligations to the CF, make no mistake about that.

Well, unless they radically changed the system in the past two years, I doubt it's that complete a briefing. The recruiters I spoke to basically said "You get free education and a good resume. You have to serve a couple of years and maybe go off on operations, but you get FREE EDUCATION! And a great-looking resume when you go back to civvie street! What more could you ask for?" Another point that was emphasized while I went through the system is that most people, at one point in their life, end up in a job they don't particularly like, and the Navy (in my case) would just be that, if I decide I don't like it after going through RMC.

One could say it's the recruiters' job to present the positive arguments and leave out the bad, but according to your argument their job seems to be to "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth" about the CF. It's not the case.

 

[Remius]

One could say it's the recruiters' job to present the positive arguments and leave out the bad, but according to your argument their job seems to be to "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth" about the CF. It's not the case.

Well I guess that says it all.  That is my argument.  You say it's not the case based on your own experience.  Recruiters are trained to attract people into the CF.  Further to that they are also trained to present a realistic picture of the CF.  Sometimes people hear what they want to and forget the stuff they're told.  Then they blame the system.

Did you actually read the MARS RIA when you went to the CFRC?  Read the Working Environment section.  It's not all rosy. 

Don't take this the wrong way but you have no idea what you are talking about.  Based on what you have said above, you have no idea what a recruiter's job is.  I'm sorry that your limited recruiting experience wasn't up to standard, but don't paint the whole system that way.

 

[FredDaHead]

Well I guess that says it all.  That is my argument.  You say it's not the case based on your own experience.  Recruiters are trained to attract people into the CF.  Further to that they are also trained to present a realistic picture of the CF.  Sometimes people hear what they want to and forget the stuff they're told.  Then they blame the system.

Did you actually read the MARS RIA when you went to the CFRC?  Read the Working Environment section.  It's not all rosy. 

Don't take this the wrong way but you have no idea what you are talking about.  Based on what you have said above, you have no idea what a recruiter's job is.  I'm sorry that your limited recruiting experience wasn't up to standard, but don't paint the whole system that way.

My point was actually with the "media" marketing (radio ads that basically say "hey, the Canadian Forces will pay for your education!" and the like) rather than the recruiting experience. I actually had a pretty positive recruiting experience; they didn't hide anything, they just put the emphasis on the good stuff. The interviewer was a MARS Lt(N) and actually told me about the bad parts and was balanced between the good and the bad, but the NCO recruiters that I met until I met the Lt(N) weren't.

I think we're actually veering off the main idea here, and it's partly my fault. I do believe we were discussing the emphasis put on free education, and not the recruiting techniques and what recruiters are supposed to do. Care to go back to that?

 

[Remius]

Back on topic.  ;D

The thing is that, the NCM SEP program has been out for quite some time.  There has been very little emphasis on this program as a whole. And it really is a gem.  If someone wants to get into electronics and we can pay for it, then why not emphasize this point?  Same as emphasizing our pension plan?  Amount of leave? Salaries etc etc.  The people we compete with will be doing the same with their carrots.  Throughout history the military provides benefits for those that serve.  we get something they get something.  I see nothing wrong with that. 

 

[FredDaHead]

Fair enough. I actually agree with most of that.

My peeve is mostly a "slippery slope" argument: I hear criticism about the American way of doing things, and I can easily see the new emphasis on education and the like sliding into something like that, where they tell recruits about all the good things while leaving out or downplaying the bad.

"Yeah, you might go to Iraq, but you'll be in a secure base, in the rear, away from the fighting. And you might just get sent to Pearl Harbour or Japan, think about that! Besides, when you get back, the GI bill will let you go to college for free!"

 

[Remius]

Well it is a slippery slope given the pressure to get numbers up.  However managing the expectations of CF applicants is still at the forefront.  Although some trades may be closed, there is still a chance to show people something they may not have considered.  The pressure on American recruiters is immense and has career implications.  So they will go to lengths that would seem inappropriate here.  Pound for pound, a Canadian Forces recruiter will bring in as many applicants if not more than their American counterparts on a per capita basis.  There is no quota system either.  The whole thing is mission oriented.  Yes, the campaigns have gotten a lot more agressive, and the CF has to get more proactive and less reactive if we want to meet our commitments.  The key as you said is balance.

 

[old man neri]

Marketing free education and a good experience building is a great idea. One should take into consideration that everyone that joins may not plan on doing it for life, some people just want to do it for a while and then go do something else. The education and experience features tells these individual is that they can serve and when they are ready to get out and move on they will have the education and experience to allow them to get a decent civilian job. To expect every recruit to stay in the service until they retire is just plain ludicrous.

 

[armychickenlittle]

Hey, guys, thanks for all this great discussion!  This really helps people to understand that there are positives and negatives to joining the CF, whether we offer a free (interpret that how you will) education or otherwise.  One of the reasons we offer these programs in civilian schools is that we realize and are reacting to the reality that we cannot train enough people through our military schools to meet our manning requirements. The same applies for NCM as for Officer programs (ROTP through Royal Military College vs Canadian civilian universities).  We need the people. We need them trained. We need them NOW. As for the discussion re: recruiters' performance, we have to go through a selection process to get posted into a recruiter position. People aren't there who don't want to be there. It's unfortunate that some applicants have a negative experience, but hey, we're human, too. If you ever don't like the answer you get, it's your right to ask another recruiter. You don't BELONG to anybody, you can deal with whomever you wish.  Having said that, if you don't like the answer a second time, chances are the answer isn't going to change.

 

[FredDaHead]

Hey, guys, thanks for all this great discussion!  This really helps people to understand that there are positives and negatives to joining the CF, whether we offer a free (interpret that how you will) education or otherwise.  One of the reasons we offer these programs in civilian schools is that we realize and are reacting to the reality that we cannot train enough people through our military schools to meet our manning requirements. The same applies for NCM as for Officer programs (ROTP through Royal Military College vs Canadian civilian universities).  We need the people. We need them trained. We need them NOW. As for the discussion re: recruiters' performance, we have to go through a selection process to get posted into a recruiter position. People aren't there who don't want to be there. It's unfortunate that some applicants have a negative experience, but hey, we're human, too. If you ever don't like the answer you get, it's your right to ask another recruiter. You don't BELONG to anybody, you can deal with whomever you wish.  Having said that, if you don't like the answer a second time, chances are the answer isn't going to change.

Recruiters, human? Right, and Plt WOs actually have mothers who loved them. Suuuuuure.