Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[mariomike]

I don't really understand it, but I've seen police horses calm hostile crowds. Difuse the combative dynamics in a positive way. Just by their presence.

I mean, they weigh so much, resistance is futile.

I think most people love police horses. One was killed, and more than 1500 people attended the memorial.

Dignitaries including Ontario’s Lt. Governor, James Bartleman, Toronto mayor David Miller, and the Toronto Chief of Police Bill Blair were joined by hundreds of police officers and other service personnel, some from as far away as Vancouver, B.C. In addition to an eight-horse honor guard from the Metro Toronto unit, officers and horses from the Kingston, Ontario, and Niagara Regional mounted police, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and the Governor General’s Horse Guards also attended.

 

[Haggis]

That is an expensive capability. As the the partner of an owner of a horse of no special pedigree, I can assure you that they very efficiently turn (a lot of) money into (a lot of) manure.

As my wife very astutely said, when she had horses she never had to worry about having disposable income.

 

[lenaitch]

Fail to plan, plan to fail.

Ottawa exists because it wasn't Montreal or Kingston. It was designed to be away from noisy protesters that had demonstrated a willingness to burn politicians and bureaucrats out of their taxpayer funded debating halls.

Ottawa is a centre of governance. Lots of bureaucrats, lawyers and scribes busily clerking away in their warrens. More power to them.

But it is also a centre of debate.

The home of the Supreme Court - where the application of current laws is debated.
The home of the Commons and Senate - where all laws are debated
The home of the Governor-General (and her Council) - to whom every Canadian can lawfully appeal and petition for redress of any and all grievances.

And a grievance does not have to be grounded in reality. But it does have to be addressed.

grievance​

NOUN​

1 A real or imagined cause for complaint, especially unfair treatment.


1.1 An official statement of a complaint over something believed to be wrong or unfair.

1.2 A feeling of resentment over something believed to be wrong or unfair.


As a Canadian not resident in Ottawa, a place that jealously guards its position as the Nation's Capital and Centre of Governance, and whose denizens cheerfully take full advantage of first crack at all jobs of influence in the warren by rendering it difficult for non-residents to get government positions (see relocation policies for new applicants), I don't feel it is asking too much that provision be made for the rest of Canada to enjoy easy access to our politicians, our bureaucrats and our debating chambers.

Your City Council, and the National Capital Commission might want to take that into account when considering downtown planning.

Do a Haussmann on Ottawa.

Haussmann's renovation of Paris - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I would argue it was chosen as a compromise between Toronto and Montreal, plus it was far away from the US border, which it was felt still had designs on Canada.

Honest question: Does Speakers Corner have any special status as a protest site or is it just tradition?

Having a designated 'protest site' only works if those so inclined choose to use it, and are not intent on mayhem or disruption, unless you can somehow engineer a Constitutionally valid law that prohibits assembly in certain areas. If an assembly is peaceful, it can legally happen anywhere.

They had a designated protest site for the G20 in Hunstville; I don't think a single soul used it. If it is out of the way of the population and media, they're not interested.

 

[Good2Golf]

That is an expensive capability. As the the partner of an owner of a horse of no special pedigree, I can assure you that they very efficiently turn (a lot of) money into (a lot of) manure.

So like politicians?

 

[lenaitch]

Or why doesn't the RCMP? After all, the stables for the Musical Ride are in Ottawa. If they want the guidon of light cavalry, they should be able to advance with lances. That would scatter a crowd.

Totally different type of horse and totally different type of training.

That is an expensive capability. As the the partner of an owner of a horse of no special pedigree, I can assure you that they very efficiently turn (a lot of) money into (a lot of) manure.

Ya no kidding, says the former owner of four (ok, two were minis). People say only rich people own horses; no, they would be rich if they didn't own horses.

It might be something that Ottawa might want to consider but it's a big line item. Toronto is about $6Mn for 24 horses (I don't know if that includes human staffing costs) and it it gets questioned every single year at budget time.

 

[RangerRay]

I remember a few years ago during the rail blockades, some provincial governments started to bring in laws to make it illegal to block roads and other infrastructure ( I thought it was already illegal ). All the lefties’ heads exploded, saying the right to protest is absolute. It sounds like the right was under that same delusion too. But government inaction in the face of other such disruptions probably made it seem that way.

 

[Good2Golf]

I remember a few years ago during the rail blockades, some provincial governments started to bring in laws to make it illegal to block roads and other infrastructure ( I thought it was already illegal ). All the lefties’ heads exploded, saying the right to protest is absolute. It sounds like the right was under that same delusion too. But government inaction in the face of other such disruptions probably made it seem that way.

Oh, it’ll be that way again, RR. And we’ll look the other way too when there is more destruction at the Coastal GasLink natural gas facilities…

 

[Kirkhill]

I would argue it was chosen as a compromise between Toronto and Montreal, plus it was far away from the US border, which it was felt still had designs on Canada.

Honest question: Does Speakers Corner have any special status as a protest site or is it just tradition?

Having a designated 'protest site' only works if those so inclined choose to use it, and are not intent on mayhem or disruption, unless you can somehow engineer a Constitutionally valid law that prohibits assembly in certain areas. If an assembly is peaceful, it can legally happen anywhere.

They had a designated protest site for the G20 in Hunstville; I don't think a single soul used it. If it is out of the way of the population and media, they're not interested.

I can remember driving past Speaker's Corner on a Sunday in the mid sixties with half a dozen end of the world and CND types on soap boxes. I also remember my father informing me that that was a place where you could go and safely speak your mind.

Speakers here may talk on any subject, as long as the police consider their speeches lawful, although this right is not restricted to Speakers' Corner only. Contrary to popular belief, there is no immunity from the law, nor are any subjects proscribed, but in practice the police intervene only when they receive a complaint.[1] On some occasions in the past, they have intervened on grounds of profanity.[2]

Though Hyde Park Speakers' Corner is considered the paved area closest to Marble Arch,[3] legally the public speaking area extends beyond the Reform Tree and covers a large area from Marble Arch to Victoria Gate, then along the Serpentine to Hyde Park Corner and the Broad Walk running from Hyde Park Corner to Marble Arch.[4]

Public riots broke out in the park in 1855, in protest over the Sunday Trading Bill, which forbade buying and selling on a Sunday, the only day working people had off. The riots were rather optimistically described by Karl Marx as "the beginning of the English revolution".[5]

The Chartist movement used Hyde Park as a point of assembly for popular protests, but no permanent speaking location was established. The Reform League organised a massive demonstration in 1866 and then again in 1867, which compelled the government to extend the franchise to include most working-class men.[citation needed]

Speakers' Corner is often held up to demonstrate freedom of speech, as anyone can turn up unannounced and talk on almost any subject, although always at the risk of being heckled by regulars. The corner was frequented by Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin,[6] George Orwell, C. L. R. James, Walter Rodney, Ben Tillett, Marcus Garvey, Kwame Nkrumah, and William Morris.[7]

Speakers' Corner - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Apparently it has lost some of its appeal with the advent of the internet.

It is one of the pressure relief valves built into the Westminster system. Better to here them gripe than have them sullen.

 

[Kirkhill]

Having a designated 'protest site' only works if those so inclined choose to use it, and are not intent on mayhem or disruption, unless you can somehow engineer a Constitutionally valid law that prohibits assembly in certain areas. If an assembly is peaceful, it can legally happen anywhere.

They had a designated protest site for the G20 in Hunstville; I don't think a single soul used it. If it is out of the way of the population and media, they're not interested.

You're right on the use of the site and the willingness to employ it. However, if Ottawa had had one it could have diverted the stampede into the corral and got the herd out of the streets. Most of the herd would have followed the truck in front.

With the pressure on the streets managed and the numbers reduced then you can start managing the criminal element - or those that are mistakenly engaged in criminal acts and mischief.

I am unaware of any such pressure management system in Ottawa. Or, like the spring melt, do they just direct it into the Ottawa River?

As to Huntsville

Huntsville was out of the way so that the politicians wouldn't be bothered. The demonstration ground also continued that.

Unfortunately for the politicians, and the bureaucrats, as far as I am concerned, part of their job is to be bothered. Their aggravated constituents need to be seen and heard.





The lower photo is of Hyde Park during George Floyd demonstrations.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I remember a few years ago during the rail blockades, some provincial governments started to bring in laws to make it illegal to block roads and other infrastructure ( I thought it was already illegal ). All the lefties’ heads exploded, saying the right to protest is absolute. It sounds like the right was under that same delusion too. But government inaction in the face of other such disruptions probably made it seem that way.

Yea a bunch of uppity taxpayers forgetting their place, taking up sacred protesting grounds from deserving leftists.and not obeying their benevolent overseer class.

 

[Kirkhill]

I can find you similar pictures for Westminster and Trafalgar Square, let alone the Mall and Buckingham Palace.

People lying in front of cars. Buses held up on Westminster Bridge. The subway stopped.

People arrested. Fisticuffs ensue. Miscreants hauled away. Never an Emergency Measure in sight. Much less someone's bank account frozen. Or their truck confiscated and sold.

 

[Jarnhamar]

OPS chief is saying financial sanctions will be applied in the months to come against protestors. That seems odd, like the EA is being used as a work around to punish people and less about some kind of state of emergency.

 

[Good2Golf]

OPS chief is saying financial sanctions will be applied in the months to come against protestors. That seems odd, like the EA is being used as a work around to punish people and less about some kind of state of emergency.

Oh, so those would be City of Ottawa financial sanctions approved by Ottawa City Council and enforced by Ottawa Police Service, then?

 

[Altair]

I can find you similar pictures for Westminster and Trafalgar Square, let alone the Mall and Buckingham Palace.

People lying in front of cars. Buses held up on Westminster Bridge. The subway stopped.

People arrested. Fisticuffs ensue. Miscreants hauled away. Never an Emergency Measure in sight. Much less someone's bank account frozen. Or their truck confiscated and sold.

I'm going to venture a guess and say that these protests didn't turn into occupations that lasted for 3 weeks.

Would I be right?

 

[Kirkhill]

February 1974 - Coach carrying soldiers and families in northern England is bombed by the Irish Republican Army (IRA). Twelve people killed, 14 hurt.

October-November 1974 - Wave of IRA bombs in British pubs kills 28 people and wounds more than 200.

July 1982 - Two IRA bomb attacks on soldiers in London’s royal parks kill 11 people and wound 50.

December 1983 - IRA bomb at Harrods department store kills six.


October 1984 - Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher’s cabinet narrowly escapes IRA bomb that kills five people at Brighton hotel during Conservative Party’s annual conference.

September 1989 - Bomb at Royal Marines Music School in Deal, southeast England, kills 11 and wounds 22.

February 1990 - Explosion at Army recruitment centre in Leicester. Two wounded.

May 1990 - Seven wounded by blast at Army Educational Service headquarters in London suburb of Eltham.

May 1990 - One soldier is killed and another wounded by car bomb in Wembley.

June 1990 - Soldier is shot dead at train station in Lichfield.


February 1991 - IRA comes close to killing Prime Minister John Major and key cabinet members in a mortar attack on Downing Street. One of three mortar bombs slammed into garden behind building, exploding within 50 feet (15 metres) of the target.

April 1992 - Huge car bomb outside Baltic Exchange in London’s financial district kills three people and wounds 91.

March 1993 - Bombs in two litter bins in Warrington kill two boys aged three and 12.

April 1993 - IRA truck bomb devastates Bishopsgate area of London’s financial district, killing one and wounding 44.

February 1996 - Two people die when IRA paramilitaries detonate large bomb in London’s Docklands area.

March 2001 - Car bomb explodes outside BBC’s London headquarters. Police say the Real IRA, a republican splinter group opposed to the IRA’s cease-fire, was behind the blast. One man was wounded.

I leave it to the reader to decide if these were greater or lesser than blowing horns in Ottawa.

 

[Good2Golf]

I leave it to the reader to decide if these were greater or lesser than blowing horns in Ottawa.

The British experienced things differently back then…

 

[Kirkhill]

I'm going to venture a guess and say that these protests didn't turn into occupations that lasted for 3 weeks.

Would I be right?

No. They didn't turn into occupations. The occupiers generally had somewhere to go.

Now, if you want to know what disruption might look like

Climate Change: 40 protesters arrested as Extinction Rebellion brings London roads to standstill

Several Extinction Rebellion protesters have been arrested for spray painting and laying in the road in Westminster.

news.sky.com

Bash on regardless, mate!

 

[Kirkhill]

Course, you might like this one - 19 years plus or minus.

Greenham Common Women's Peace Camp - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[lenaitch]

You're right on the use of the site and the willingness to employ it. However, if Ottawa had had one it could have diverted the stampede into the corral and got the herd out of the streets. Most of the herd would have followed the truck in front.

With the pressure on the streets managed and the numbers reduced then you can start managing the criminal element - or those that are mistakenly engaged in criminal acts and mischief.

I am unaware of any such pressure management system in Ottawa. Or, like the spring melt, do they just direct it into the Ottawa River?

As to Huntsville

Huntsville was out of the way so that the politicians wouldn't be bothered. The demonstration ground also continued that.

Unfortunately for the politicians, and the bureaucrats, as far as I am concerned, part of their job is to be bothered. Their aggravated constituents need to be seen and heard.

View attachment 68863

View attachment 68864

The lower photo is of Hyde Park during George Floyd demonstrations.

Simply from a security standpoint, holding the 'G' conferences in places like Huntsville, Kananaskis and Charlevoix was genius.

 

[Kirkhill]

Simply from a security standpoint, holding the 'G' conferences in places like Huntsville, Kananaskis and Charlevoix was genius.

And the Fire Marshal and the Police Chief are at odds again. Lock the door? Or keep it open?

Hide the government? Or make it face its employers?