Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[brihard]

I generally agree with this sentiment and want more people to realize they can quit the CAF, stop suckling on the Government teet and be completely fine.

Military and organizations like Police Forces condition people psychologically to think they can't do anything else. It's all part of their plan to coerce people to stay.

They even put up massive administrative roadblocks to make it difficult for someone to leave and they make doing things like withdrawing your pension extremely burdensome. It's all part of their coercion strategy.

I also think mass resignations are one of the best ways to effect changes on a public institution. If an institution is faltering, it needs to be smashed in to dust, not strung along on life support.

Look at the CAF right now, it's borderline combat ineffective but I don't think it's bled enough yet. I think it needs a catastrophic failure and needs to be seen as a continued massive source of embarrassment for the Government for real change to occur. I could say the same thing about a number of our other garbage public institutions as well

So yes, please continue to encourage others to quit. I do it myself and have provided similar advice to a number of people. I don't think that was your intent and think you were merely trying to gaslight @Quirky but I think it was great advice.

It's certainly easier to say "Quit if you don't like it" than actually listening to people's grievances

Gaslight him? Not at all. Gaslighting is trying to convince someone of a falsehood, subtly and over the long term, and against their own perceptions. Just calling out what appears to me to be the hypocrisy of shitting on the country (not just the government) while in its service and drawing its paycheck. He is gainfully employable in lots of different places. The ‘you can work elsewhere’ part of my reply was utterly earnest.

Someone who simply doesn’t like their job, I wouldn’t reply as I did. Not my business. Lots of people embrace the stick and stick it out for good reason. I simply wasn’t going to walk past and ignore someone characterizing our entire country the way he did, announcing that he ‘can’t wait’ to leave, knowing that in truth he still serves it.

Sticking it out for the pension is an entirely rational choice. It’s just not aligned with his own declaration, and I felt like pointing that out.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

The protest in Ottawa and how it was handled. Compared to other countries

Iran , protests over women's dress and clothing rules. Some where between 234 and 510 people have killed depending on what news service is quoting numbers, 14000 people detained, arrested, 21 facing death sentences.

China, a Covid protest, reporter arrested and beaten for his coverage, unknown arrest numbers, 50 plus at one protest detained, then forced to delete social media information, cell phones checked for illegal apps on them

Belgium soccer riot/protest 500 people involved and reacted with riot police and water cannons

USA protests of police shootings, BLM, police officers shot, police officers attacked in their patrol cars. Protesters peppered sprayed, wooden bullets used, paint ball pepper rounds, horses trampled people, officers hit with flag poles, you name it happened. Protesters looking at 1 month to 20 years in jail depending on the protest.

Canada, some pepper spray, CS type gas, mass arrests, some jail time, horse stepped on some one. Notices handed out asking the protesters to leave. Canadian Protesters have it easy and life goes on.

EA used to just speed the end up. At least there is an investigation at the end and maybe some sound reasoning and rules for the next time will come out

 

[QV]

Vaccine resistance movements have always been led by white, middle-class voices and promoted by structures of racial inequality.

Anti-vaxers or vaccine hesitant people are predominantly liberal and female.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Yes. And?

Also, those three terms were specifically used in relation to a completely separate protest, not the Convoy protest, and in THAT protest, he did not call protestors "misogynists", he said they lashed out with "misogynistic attacks". Huzzah for media spin.

What he did do in a completely separate interview was call the fiercest anti-vaxxers to be racist and misogynist. Vaccine resistance movements have always been led by white, middle-class voices and promoted by structures of racial inequality.

"Always". That's improbable. Now you're just dipping into class warfare talking points.

 

[suffolkowner]

"Always". That's improbable. Now you're just dipping into class warfare talking points.

well in Canada it would have to be wouldnt it? Since until recently we were all white

 

[Remius]

Anti-vaxers or vaccine hesitant people are predominantly liberal and female.

If you are basing it off the data gathered by the relevant poll then fixed for you.

There is a significant difference between vax hesitant and anti vax.

 

[IKnowNothing]

If you are basing it off the data gathered by the relevant poll then fixed for you.

There is a significant difference between vax hesitant and anti vax.

There's also a significant difference between the profiles of the typical hardline anti-vaxxer pre and post covid.

Crudely put
Pre- left wing yuppy women that believe in the healing power of crystals and prefer to treat preventable diseases with sage grass
Post- right wing MAGA type that believe in 5G turning the frogs gay and prefer to treat preventable diseases with colloidal silver and horse paste

Proof that the political spectrum is a circle, and there are ready marks for snake oil salesmen in every party

 

[QV]

Either pure believers or filthy non-believers then, hey? Why do you even tolerate these people?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Yes. And?

Also, those three terms were specifically used in relation to a completely separate protest, not the Convoy protest, and in THAT protest, he did not call protestors "misogynists", he said they lashed out with "misogynistic attacks". Huzzah for media spin.

What he did do in a completely separate interview was call the fiercest anti-vaxxers to be racist and misogynist. Vaccine resistance movements have always been led by white, middle-class voices and promoted by structures of racial inequality.

You're right he did use that specific quote to describe a seperate protest (where he was targeted specifically).

He also said the protestors with the convoy were mostly racists, mysoginists, and something else. You can find references towards the beginning of this thread.

 

[childs56]

The protest in Ottawa and how it was handled. Compared to other countries

Iran , protests over women's dress and clothing rules. Some where between 234 and 510 people have killed depending on what news service is quoting numbers, 14000 people detained, arrested, 21 facing death sentences.

China, a Covid protest, reporter arrested and beaten for his coverage, unknown arrest numbers, 50 plus at one protest detained, then forced to delete social media information, cell phones checked for illegal apps on them

Belgium soccer riot/protest 500 people involved and reacted with riot police and water cannons

USA protests of police shootings, BLM, police officers shot, police officers attacked in their patrol cars. Protesters peppered sprayed, wooden bullets used, paint ball pepper rounds, horses trampled people, officers hit with flag poles, you name it happened. Protesters looking at 1 month to 20 years in jail depending on the protest.

Canada, some pepper spray, CS type gas, mass arrests, some jail time, horse stepped on some one. Notices handed out asking the protesters to leave. Canadian Protesters have it easy and life goes on.

EA used to just speed the end up. At least there is an investigation at the end and maybe some sound reasoning and rules for the next time will come out

Sorry but comparing the peaceful protest in Ottawa to those elsewhere in the world is simply ignorant. Levels of response is parallel to the level from the protesters. One of the key issues when dealing with protests across Canada and was one of the reasons the Ottawa Police did not want to escalate their use of force. Minimum use of force to achieve their objectives.

People here were not throwing rocks and cocktail bombs, nor were they beating people up shooting guns off.

 

[childs56]

using potential weapons of mass murder (trucks, as seen in France, US) for political purposes is unacceptable.

Are you kidding or serious? I bet those heavy fuel oil trucks waiting to explode is part of the line also.....
To me what the government has said is every semi truck is a heavy fuel oil bomb waiting to explode.

Those trucks cost in the neighbor hood of $200,000 to replace. That picker truck around $750,000-1,000,000 to replace. I doubt very much peaceful protesters were going to use their trucks as weapons, as described by the government. Also stated by the government were the weapons found in the trucks. Which the Police stated was untrue. Who does one believe?

A solution to heavy fuel oil trucks waiting to explode driving around Ottawa providing service to the area is to stop using "bomb trucks" for deliveries. If I was a truck driver I would be pretty pissed off at the government for saying my truck is a bomb waiting to explode.

 

[daftandbarmy]

You're right he did use that specific quote to describe a seperate protest (where he was targeted specifically).

He also said the protestors with the convoy were mostly racists, mysoginists, and something else. You can find references towards the beginning of this thread.

Canadians? Did he mention 'Canadians' at all?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Sorry but comparing the peaceful protest in Ottawa to those elsewhere in the world is simply ignorant. Levels of response is parallel to the level from the protesters. One of the key issues when dealing with protests across Canada and was one of the reasons the Ottawa Police did not want to escalate their use of force. Minimum use of force to achieve their objectives.

People here were not throwing rocks and cocktail bombs, nor were they beating people up shooting guns off.

There is a difference between 'minimal use of force' and what the OPS was doing.

Doing SFA and hoping it turns out for the best wasn't achieving any objective. Just enforcing existing bylaws would have been a start, and would have shut down the noise issue from honking right away.

For context, the same OPS issued a ticket to a local company a few years ago for exceeding the noise bylaw because they kept the stereo going on their float in a parking lot immediately following the Christmas parade (so around 2030ish at night, in an area about 300m or more from the closest house). They could have made a mint wandering around ticketing people.

 

[QV]

Still not a public order emergency national in scope.

 

[RangerRay]

There is a difference between 'minimal use of force' and what the OPS was doing.

Doing SFA and hoping it turns out for the best wasn't achieving any objective. Just enforcing existing bylaws would have been a start, and would have shut down the noise issue from honking right away.

For context, the same OPS issued a ticket to a local company a few years ago for exceeding the noise bylaw because they kept the stereo going on their float in a parking lot immediately following the Christmas parade (so around 2030ish at night, in an area about 300m or more from the closest house). They could have made a mint wandering around ticketing people.

I am guessing with the number of people there expressing FOTL/sovereign citizen pseudo-legal BS and if the police went in to aggressively ticket everyone for municipal and provincial offences, not an insignificant number of people would have to be arrested to get ID, prevent continuation of the offence, preserve evidence, ensure appearance in court, etc. Once police start making those arrests for “minor” offences, I don’t think it would be unreasonable for the police to expect the crowd to get cranky. I am guessing that the OPS probably didn’t want to start aggressively ticketing the protesters unless they had a backup plan (and officers) for if the crowd got cranky. I am guessing that there were no plan and no resources for said plan.

I agree, probably something they should have pursued at the start, but it probably wouldn’t have been a simple process of just handing out tickets.

It also doesn’t help that in recent years, police have been taking taking a hands-off approach to protest disturbances probably for fear of escalating violence. Protesters have learned they can get away with more crap than they used to.

 

[brihard]

I am guessing with the number of people there expressing FOTL/sovereign citizen pseudo-legal BS and if the police went in to aggressively ticket everyone for municipal and provincial offences, not an insignificant number of people would have to be arrested to get ID, prevent continuation of the offence, preserve evidence, ensure appearance in court, etc. Once police start making those arrests for “minor” offences, I don’t think it would be unreasonable for the police to expect the crowd to get cranky. I am guessing that the OPS probably didn’t want to start aggressively ticketing the protesters unless they had a backup plan (and officers) for if the crowd got cranky. I am guessing that there were no plan and no resources for said plan.

I agree, probably something they should have pursued at the start, but it probably wouldn’t have been a simple process of just handing out tickets.

It also doesn’t help that in recent years, police have been taking taking a hands-off approach to protest disturbances probably for fear of escalating violence. Protesters have learned they can get away with more crap than they used to.

There were a number of cases of exactly this- minor and necessary police/law enforcement actions that immediately attracted a number of angry occupiers. It became clear quickly that any active enforcement measures would necessitate being ready to handle a sudden and upset crowd. Some of the occupiers were actively communicating such police actions broadly, and asking for ‘backup’ from more of their crowd.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

Sorry but comparing the peaceful protest in Ottawa to those elsewhere in the world is simply ignorant. Levels of response is parallel to the level from the protesters. One of the key issues when dealing with protests across Canada and was one of the reasons the Ottawa Police did not want to escalate their use of force. Minimum use of force to achieve their objectives.

People here were not throwing rocks and cocktail bombs, nor were they beating people up shooting guns off.

I actually was hoping would read that and realize i thought it was well handled and cooler heads prevailed.

I was caught in a riot in Toronto in the 1990s (Rodney King Protest) , CS gas was used, horse mounted police with long canes, rocks were tossed thru windows, stores looted, etc. Still no one was killed or badly hurt ( police horse was hit in the eye, now they have plastic armour protecting the horses) Subway train smelled really bad as people left the down town core because we all smelled of CS gas. Canadian protests have been peaceful and mostly ended peaceful. You look how other countries handle a protest, we do it totally different and I hope it continues to be handled in a more peaceful way.


Now the protest out West was different because large equipment was used to run around the police lines, weapons were seized according to reports, but still no one was killed. The world could take lessons on how we do it.

 

[Navy_Pete]

There were a number of cases of exactly this- minor and necessary police/law enforcement actions that immediately attracted a number of angry occupiers. It became clear quickly that any active enforcement measures would necessitate being ready to handle a sudden and upset crowd. Some of the occupiers were actively communicating such police actions broadly, and asking for ‘backup’ from more of their crowd.

That makes sense, but probably should have been an early indication to the BGHs that the sit back and wait plan wasn't going to work, so letting it fester for the next 3-4 weeks only made the potential for things to go sideways worse.

Nothing against the OPS itself, but the combination of the previous leadership and the useless mayor and some city council members seemed to result in indecision and essentially being reactive as a result. The weird jurisdiction and some other complicating factors must have made it worse, but that's what the BGHs get the big bucks for.

 

[mariomike]

I was caught in a riot in Toronto in the 1990s (Rodney King Protest) , CS gas was used, horse mounted police with long canes, rocks were tossed thru windows, stores looted, etc. Still no one was killed or badly hurt ( police horse was hit in the eye, now they have plastic armour protecting the horses) Subway train smelled really bad as people left the down town core because we all smelled of CS gas.

They say that's the day the town lost its virginity. Lost its innocence.

I'm not convinced it ever was innocent. I think we popped our cherry on the boat over and looked back with no regrets.

It was certainly the worst riot I ever saw with my own eyes. Apparently, the last major one had been in 1933.

The G20 was the worst, I suppose. But, I was retired by then, and watched it on my living room TV.

​

 

[dapaterson]

The citizen mobilization to block convoy movement near Billings Bridge may well have been the trigger for the long delayed police awakening from their slumber; the risk of citizens taking matters into their own hands likely played a major role in forcing the clearing action.