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From CWO Richard - C&E Training Requirements

Canadian Sig

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I gotta tell ya that I am firmly of the opinion that we need to do more combat training for all the green C&E trades. Radop is right, we have guys coming home to the unit right now who have been under fire and returned fire in multiple contacts. Most of them have done so with very little in the way of training to prepare them.

Radop, from what our one-eyed friend tells me they are trying very hard to retain him. ( unfortunatly with bars on his shoulders  ;D ). He is well and I see him fairly regularly.
 

KaptKain

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Opening post conclusion: Our new troops need more hands on training with weapons handling as well as situational awareness training before being deployed overseas.

The bottom men <JNCOs> know this. The top men <Officers> believe the system has adequate training at the moment. The middle men <SNCO's> usually find out about this prior to deployment. The Snr NCO's try to fix these shortcomings ASAP when on ground at new deployment. Overall more headaches<and possible life lost> trying to get all peeps trained to acceptable section/platoon standards.
Problem: We are being pushed beyond our limits in troop strength and fleet/combat equipment serviceability by the federal governments military committments <Common sense in ANY nationality>

Answer: Need the top to speak more to the middle man and vice versa. As well as the bottom man not to hold back on any personal training deficiencies. Top man MUST pass this info onto the Top dog, the politicians!

WRT the CFSCE Training buildings. I did a Fiber Optics course at the Line school a few wekes ago and hell yes, THEY NEED MORE FUNDING for training structures. At -32 w/ windchill...at least the radiator shoiuld have worked in the class.....wasnt on at ALL the whole 5 days there. Did I also say the classroom entrance was right into the cold? not some hallway as usual classes are. LOL




 

hank011

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Looking back on this thread I realize now that my issue is that the words "we""they""them" are being used too loosely. Pre deployment training should be where this is all done for all non regiment based trades because everyone should be brought up to the same level.
The C&E branch does not exist to train troops. It is a charity that supports a museum. When I dont know how to do something I dont blame "that damned C&E branch" I bug the Boss to set up funding for some "required" training. He works for the Base or Wing commander, not the C&E branch. The function of the C&E branch is purely ceremonial.
When a perfectly sound paper is produced by a senior guy in the army on deployment and it is discussed, HE is not the issue. His non specific use of ALL is definitely the issue...we dont ALL need to become super soldiers because we wont ALL be deployed(especially air force techs).
CFSCE needs to give up and move to Borden or Trenton. They have been neglected for as long as I have been in and it will never...ever...ever get any better. The only debate seems to be who's fault it ISN'T.
 

observor 69

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hank011 said:
Looking back on this thread I realize now that my issue is that the words "we""they""them" are being used too loosely. Pre deployment training should be where this is all done for all non regiment based trades because everyone should be brought up to the same level.
The C&E branch does not exist to train troops. It is a charity that supports a museum. When I dont know how to do something I dont blame "that damned C&E branch" I bug the Boss to set up funding for some "required" training. He works for the Base or Wing commander, not the C&E branch. The function of the C&E branch is purely ceremonial.
When a perfectly sound paper is produced by a senior guy in the army on deployment and it is discussed, HE is not the issue. His non specific use of ALL is definitely the issue...we dont ALL need to become super soldiers because we wont ALL be deployed(especially air force techs).
CFSCE needs to give up and move to Borden or Trenton. They have been neglected for as long as I have been in and it will never...ever...ever get any better. The only debate seems to be who's fault it ISN'T.

+10,
Spent six years at Kingston/CFSCE.
 

Radop

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Canadian Sig said:
Radop, from what our one-eyed friend tells me they are trying very hard to retain him. ( unfortunatly with bars on his shoulders  ;D ). He is well and I see him fairly regularly.

That's great news.  I saw him on the game a couple of weeks ago.  He is looking good.  I feel bad that I haven't been able to get up there to see him.  I have told a hundred people to say hi for me, so you will be number 101.  Tell him good luck from me.
 

Radop

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hank011 said:
CFSCE needs to give up and move to Borden or Trenton. They have been neglected for as long as I have been in and it will never...ever...ever get any better. The only debate seems to be who's fault it ISN'T.
How will this solve the problem?  Borden has some new buildings but for the most part their buildings are falling apart as well.  The problem occurred in the 90s when there was $0 for funding capital projects and closing bases.  Now we have buildings that are falling apart, ill adept at servicing the soldiers, etc.  Moving to Borden will not solve anything as a new building would have to be built on a camp that is mainly for support trades.  Meafort would be a more logical choice if it had to move but my question is why?  It would take years for the transition and we are already hurting for people in the Sig Op Trade.  As for never ever going to get better, it takes about 10 years to get a capital project the scope and size of what you are talking off the ground.  A new mess, shacks for the students and a few new buildings are being planned and should be approved in the next year (they have been working on it at the school since my QL5s in 98 at least.)  They have one new building in the school already and hopefully it will have the rest completed within the next 5 years.
 

hank011

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Radop said:
How will this solve the problem?  Borden has some new buildings but for the most part their buildings are falling apart as well.  The problem occurred in the 90s when there was $0 for funding capital projects and closing bases.  Now we have buildings that are falling apart, ill adept at servicing the soldiers, etc.  Moving to Borden will not solve anything as a new building would have to be built on a camp that is mainly for support trades.  Meafort would be a more logical choice if it had to move but my question is why?  It would take years for the transition and we are already hurting for people in the Sig Op Trade.  As for never ever going to get better, it takes about 10 years to get a capital project the scope and size of what you are talking off the ground.  A new mess, shacks for the students and a few new buildings are being planned and should be approved in the next year (they have been working on it at the school since my QL5s in 98 at least.)  They have one new building in the school already and hopefully it will have the rest completed within the next 5 years.

Trenton new building time for barracks...design to completion 3.5 yrs
Borden new officers mansion...design to completion 3 years
226,227,215...guess what...like it or not...support trades...surprise, we aint infantry
Do you remember the Jr ranks mess on the Mc Naughton side...torn down
Do you remember what was across from the mess on Vimy...torn down
Do you remember our gym...converted to a school for snr nco's and officers
B2 is nice...condemned...to be torn down
B1 is crap...they dont want to look at it cause the same contractor built it and...it will be torn down
Kingston has always hated the school and treated it like a fiscal welfare haven
Borden was designed for training, Trenton has their poo together.
Meaford...never heard of it, never been there. What about Masset?
Kingston facilities were awesome once but the neglect is heart wrenching.
Sig Ops have always been hurting because they treat their people like poo.
I'd go to Battle School before I'd let some bitter sig op try to mold me into a backstabber
 

LineJumper

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KaptKain said:
WRT the CFSCE Training buildings. I did a Fiber Optics course at the Line school a few wekes ago and hell yes, THEY NEED MORE FUNDING for training structures. At -32 w/ windchill...at least the radiator shoiuld have worked in the class.....wasnt on at ALL the whole 5 days there. Did I also say the classroom entrance was right into the cold? not some hallway as usual classes are. LOL

That's too bad about the Line Training classrooms. I remember on my 3's and 5's putting that in the course critique. I'm back again on course, but we're in the basement of the Genet and have to keep the windows open because the heat cant be turned down. Those poor computers must take a *hit kicking from all that heat. I know from experience that scribing fibre with wooden fingers is a task in itself. One day when I'm old and retired the up and coming Lineman will have better digs, but we work outside all the time, so maybe it's not so bad.
 

Radop

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hank011 said:
Kingston has always hated the school and treated it like a fiscal welfare haven
Borden was designed for training, Trenton has their poo together.
Meaford...never heard of it, never been there. What about Masset?
Kingston facilities were awesome once but the neglect is heart wrenching.
Sig Ops have always been hurting because they treat their people like poo.
I'd go to Battle School before I'd let some bitter sig op try to mold me into a backstabber

Nice arguement but do you have one clue as to what you are talking about?  What building could house the C&E School in Borden that would not have to kick out some other school first?  Talk to some of the support trades and see what they think of Borden's schools.  See what kind of state of repairs they are in.  What room is there for housing 300-400 reg force pers for training let alone the staff to train them.  As for the school getting the shitty end of the stick, that wasn't from the base, that's from the units.  CFJSR doesn't have the equipment to lend to them because they mainly deal with Satcom so most of the equipment comes from reserve units who give the vehicles that they screwed up.    The school has a pretty good rep not only with in the signals world for posting to higher possitions (WO and above) but has scored pretty high in its assessments from BORDEN.  I know this because I actually talk to people who have been there, taught there and gone through the school.  Tell me a base right now that doesn't have buildings in disrepair?  I have been in Ktown now for 13 yrs.  I know a little about the history here.
 

willy

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Radop said:
As for the school getting the shitty end of the stick, that wasn't from the base, that's from the units.  CFJSR doesn't have the equipment to lend to them because they mainly deal with Satcom so most of the equipment comes from reserve units who give the vehicles that they screwed up.   

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I'd like to remind you that we aren't the only ones who can break kit.
 

hank011

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Radop said:
Nice arguement but do you have one clue as to what you are talking about?  What building could house the C&E School in Borden that would not have to kick out some other school first?  Talk to some of the support trades and see what they think of Borden's schools.  See what kind of state of repairs they are in.  What room is there for housing 300-400 reg force pers for training let alone the staff to train them.  As for the school getting the shitty end of the stick, that wasn't from the base, that's from the units.  CFJSR doesn't have the equipment to lend to them because they mainly deal with Satcom so most of the equipment comes from reserve units who give the vehicles that they screwed up.    The school has a pretty good rep not only with in the signals world for posting to higher possitions (WO and above) but has scored pretty high in its assessments from BORDEN.  I know this because I actually talk to people who have been there, taught there and gone through the school.  Tell me a base right now that doesn't have buildings in disrepair?  I have been in Ktown now for 13 yrs.  I know a little about the history here.
I havent replied in awhile as it takes me a little while to contain the frustration. Each time I post something, you go off on a tangent and I have no idea how you got there (or you nit pick).
CFSCE has 2 barrack blocks functional for QL3/5. B2 is slated for demolition and B1is for OSQ/Officers. Their classroom space is filled to capacity, their barracks are to capacity as well. The school is not well served in Kingston, hasnt been for years. If new facilities are to be built(and they have to do something)...let them be in Borden or Trenton as they have shown that they CAN support a school if given the funding. The problem is NOT the school it is the INFRASTRUCTURE and the support thereof.
 

Canadian Sig

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Gotta say that I'm not unhappy with the fact that the Army is getting control. Things are already changing here in Pet. All MCpls are being sent on a Land mod 6 for PLQ ( even if they have already done a CF PLQ ). As we have been informed, we wont be sent overseas until we have completed that Land Mod 6. It's making some Master Jacks real unhappy but it makes sense to me ( we'll see how happy I am when I'm on the next Land Mod 6 come September ;D ).
 

MOOXE

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Canadian Sig said:
Gotta say that I'm not unhappy with the fact that the Army is getting control. Things are already changing here in Pet. All MCpls are being sent on a Land mod 6 for PLQ ( even if they have already done a CF PLQ ). As we have been informed, we wont be sent overseas until we have completed that Land Mod 6. It's making some Master Jacks real unhappy but it makes sense to me ( we'll see how happy I am when I'm on the next Land Mod 6 come September ;D ).

I am three days away from grad on my CF PLQ here in Shilo. We were told this was one of the very last CF PLQ's for field unit based army personel, theres one more course ongoing thats two weeks behind us. We have joked through the entire course that we would end up taking the mod 6 anyways. There is a mod6 going on right now in our shacks, artillery, and its about 6 weeks long.

So where did you hear that all MCpl would end up taking a mod6? The entire course over again or just the mod6 portion? Any CANFORGENs or printed material of any sorts?


edit...

As I sit here and stew about this some questions come to mind. What about other support trades? Will Sgt's and above who only have a CF PLQ be required to take mod6? The Arty mod6 that is going on right now along side us has lost alot due to medical and failures, probably around 10. I think of the average age of our trade... something like mid 30's.... and the amount of medical chits and pensions going around....I'v got to wonder if this will even work in the short term.
 

Canadian Sig

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As far as I know this is just a Petawawa thing. There are 5 MCpls on the Land 6 right now who have all been CFPLQ qual'ed for a fair while now. .......and yah the average age is kindda high comparative to the combat arms kids. I hav'nt personaly seen any paperwork yet but I have been told to expect to be on a land Mod 6 shortly after finishing the CFPLQ that I am currently on.

If I see any clarification I will be sure to pass it on  :salute:
 
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