Future Canadian Airborne Capability and Organisation! Or, is it Redundant? (a merged thread)

[daftandbarmy]

I'd like someone who served in the Airborne Regiment to comment, but I feel the one year rotation has readiness, continuity and training issues. I am not opposed to an airportable brigade group, but suggest a permanent airborne battalion group is the way to go in just about every way except political acceptability. Oh, wait.

We did this kind of rotation with 5 AB Bde in the UK, and it has been continued with 16 AB Bde AFAIK. To be honest, I can't recall how long each Bn was 'in role' but it seemed like it was about a year or so.

It relies on the availability of a large number of jump qualified pers and a healthy air delivery infrastructure, of course, and about 4 solid collective field exercises per year for the in role troops. One or two of those should focus on exercising the rest of the mob as well.

Nothing like having a sect of 81mm MOR in DS by P + 15, and a bty of 105mm plus the rest of the mortars at P+30, then two more Bns of Inf at P + a couple of hours.

Compared with what it takes to keep an armoured formation in operation, I imagine it's comparable in some ways but much easier in others.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

D&B you reminded me of the SLE (Spearhead Land Element), a rotational task for a Light battalion BG for 6 months at 48hrs NTM anywhere in the world. Best bit of the workup? The final confirmation ex, where you manifested EVERYTHING you would take on a deployment (and for an engr sqn this was ALOT), packed all your kit as per the kit list, loaded it all up, transported it and yourselves all down to Brize Norton (the entire SLE BG that is), went through the whole movements process (passports, kit checks with all your gear laid out on your poncho, and all), went airside, sat on your kit for about 20 hours with nothing but a crappy tiny canteen selling overpriced instant coffee and 3 day old cookies run by an Iraqi immigrant to sustain you (the food provided at the cookhouse was not worth mentioning), and at the end of it all, some goofy RLC officer comes out, addresses the BG, and says 'Yes you did it, you got everything here on time for an SLE deployment' and boom, it was wacky races to get back to the respective camps.

Exercise in futility......

Sorry for the thread tangent

 

[daftandbarmy]

D&B you reminded me of the SLE (Spearhead Land Element), a rotational task for a Light battalion BG for 6 months at 48hrs NTM anywhere in the world. Best bit of the workup? The final confirmation ex, where you manifested EVERYTHING you would take on a deployment (and for an engr sqn this was ALOT), packed all your kit as per the kit list, loaded it all up, transported it and yourselves all down to Brize Norton (the entire SLE BG that is), went through the whole movements process (passports, kit checks with all your gear laid out on your poncho, and all), went airside, sat on your kit for about 20 hours with nothing but a crappy tiny canteen selling overpriced instant coffee and 3 day old cookies run by an Iraqi immigrant to sustain you (the food provided at the cookhouse was not worth mentioning), and at the end of it all, some goofy RLC officer comes out, addresses the BG, and says 'Yes you did it, you got everything here on time for an SLE deployment' and boom, it was wacky races to get back to the respective camps.

Exercise in futility......

Sorry for the thread tangent

Ah yes, the joys of airborne life. And doing it all with a raging hangover too... the lovely RAF box lunches helped make it all worthwhile though (not).

I was Lead Coy Gp a few times and got a chance to command it on a couple of exercises. It was fun having a whole Bde at your disposal for awhile.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Is there a serious threat of Russia or China landing battalion + sized forces in the Canadian North?  To what purpose?  Where could they go from there and what military objective would they achieve?  Would it not be easier to starve them out by shooting down/sinking their resupply rather than sending in our own land forces to face them? 

I can maybe see foreign forces seizing economic assets in disputed arctic waters (drilling rigs, etc.?) but what would be achieved by taking Yellowknife or Inuvik or even the entries to the North West Passage?

Not everyone sees our view of the arctic as part of Canada, if for some economic reasons having a arctic station is a good idea, what if they decide Mould bay or Melville Island would be a good place for that. Let's say the US was to racked by political tension to care. If we can't protect our own, people will eventually come for it. I would say anyone trying to predict where Canada was going to be conducting combat mission in for the last decade plus+ has been off the mark. We are entering the era where just about anything could happen.

 

[a_majoor]

The Canadian north is known as a depot of mineral and energy resources, which while expensive to get, might be worthwhile if the political or economic environment changes. We also have the global warming alarmists telling us the North West Passage will become navigable any day now (for at least the past 15 years); were that to actually happen then transit between Europe and Asia will become much easier and less expensive. Even without global warming, some technical breakthrough might make passage economical enough to compete with crossing the Indian ocean, rounding Africa and sailing up the Atlantic.

All these things are even less expensive if the new owners are not going to follow or pay for Canadian environmental, labour and tax regulations.

And don't forget even the United States disputes the North West Passage as being a Canadian waterway.

So there should be some way to show serious ability to claim and defend our sovereignty in the high arctic.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Canadian north is known as a depot of mineral and energy resources, which while expensive to get, might be worthwhile if the political or economic environment changes. We also have the global warming alarmists telling us the North West Passage will become navigable any day now (for at least the past 15 years); were that to actually happen then transit between Europe and Asia will become much easier and less expensive. Even without global warming, some technical breakthrough might make passage economical enough to compete with crossing the Indian ocean, rounding Africa and sailing up the Atlantic.

All these things are even less expensive if the new owners are not going to follow or pay for Canadian environmental, labour and tax regulations.

And don't forget even the United States disputes the North West Passage as being a Canadian waterway.

So there should be some way to show serious ability to claim and defend our sovereignty in the high arctic.

If you make it worth their while tax wise etc, natural resources companies will lay claim to the arctic for us.

Gee, has ever been done before in Canadian history? <cough> HBC <cough>

This time around you could make the spin offs far more beneficial to the locals in Northern Regions through providing good jobs, infrastructure, education etc.

 

[GR66]

If you make it worth their while tax wise etc, natural resources companies will lay claim to the arctic for us.

Gee, has ever been done before in Canadian history? <cough> HBC <cough>

This time around you could make the spin offs far more beneficial to the locals in Northern Regions through providing good jobs, infrastructure, education etc.

I think this approach is the best way to secure our sovereignty in the North.  Foreign troops wading ashore to be met by an RCMP Constable holding a double-double in his hands from the local Timmies asking "whatcha doing, eh?" turns such an action into a bonafide invasion, occupation and declaration of war against a member of NATO (and a direct threat to the USA).  Having extensive civilian infrastructure in the Arctic with people and companies actively using the land, water and resources and the civil institutions to support them is our best deterrent and defence.

I'm not saying we shouldn't maintain an airborne capability, but just not sure how large a force is really required (and affordable).  Would a light (airmobile) Infantry Regiment with three battalions rotating in readiness, each with an airborne company be enough?  A company group quick reaction force for immediate response (backed by CSOR if required)...and the balance of a battlegroup able to be airlifted in afterward. 

In case of a major situation with some warning (and I'm thinking that Russia or China initiating a war with NATO isn't likely to happen without SOME warning), the three jump companies in the Regiment could be brought up to readiness and formed into a full battlegroup.

 

[ArmyRick]

Maybe we need to re-think our potential airborne capability. Maybe a fresh approach or a different mindset is required.
We do not have the political will, financial or man power resource in this country for a larger military (maybe, maybe a larger reserves since they are cheaper).

So the idea of we need an airborne regiment/battle group/brigade/division might be a moot point.

What if, thinking aloud here, we stick with this airborne/light forces regiment sized concept and go back to the three LARGE company size groups but approach doctrine differently.

Right now, we have been very heavy on COIN and security operations. You do not need a large manpower size unit to conduct those operations, especially when fighting in a coalition.

Everybody seems hell bent on being able to fight another professional armed forces should they lay a claim to our land (especially the far north). So instead of trying to play the manpower/logistics game of battling a large army, do we instead develop doctrine to fight as an insurgency against any larger force invading Canada?

If so, how? Where would we try to bring the fight? Up north or let them come further south? I would assume our American allies would gladly support us if we were forced into hiding and had to fight as insurgents against such a military.

My idea came from thinking about the Rhodesian Light Infantry and how they approached things and then flipped the roles around.

 

[Infanteer]

Right now, we have been very heavy on COIN and security operations. You do not need a large manpower size unit to conduct those operations, especially when fighting in a coalition.

Quite the opposite - these types of operations are manpower intensive.

 

[Kirkhill]

Quite the opposite - these types of operations are manpower intensive.

IIRC, by some estimates, the IRA kept the some 20,000 of the British Army and 10,000 local police engaged in Northern Ireland, an area three times the size of PEI or one quarter the size of Nova Scotia, for thirty years with an active force of some 250 operators.

Creating chaos is easy.
Maintaining order is hard.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Got a question . How many Aircraft would take to drop a company group ,a battle group or god help us a Brigade ?
I seem to recall that it used to take 14 C 130 K's to drop an British airborne battle group.

 

[Old Sweat]

Got a question . How many Aircraft would take to drop a company group ,a battle group or god help us a Brigade ?
I seem to recall that it used to take 14 C 130 K's to drop an British airborne battle group.

I believe a million years ago the planning figure to drop a commando group from the airborne regiment including a troop of the airborne battery, sappers, second line and the like was 12 Hercs. The pathfinders and the FOO party went in by HALO 24 hours before P Hour for the main group. 

 

[Cloud Cover]

Google Exercise Sweetbriar for an example of the type of exercises conducted as early as 1950.

Interesting read......" ...more than 100 aircraft, many of them "jet propelled", took part in "Exercise Sweetbriar", and RCAF "jet propelled" Vampires operated in Arctic conditions for the first time."

It appears that there was both an air transport of troops/vehicles to an RV point, followed by a road based movement and a company sized airborne drop by (1?) PPCLI ("C Coy") to seize and hold an objective until relieved by ground forces.  A fairly large operation by today's standards....     

 

[daftandbarmy]

IIRC, by some estimates, the IRA kept the some 20,000 of the British Army and 10,000 local police engaged in Northern Ireland, an area three times the size of PEI or one quarter the size of Nova Scotia, for thirty years with an active force of some 250 operators.

Creating chaos is easy.
Maintaining order is hard.

The standard troop strength in NI was 16 (yes, sixteen) battalions of Infantry, plus a zillion 'atts and dets' of various natures and a giant, well trained, police force. And the approx. 250 'hard core bad guys' in the IRA were matched by hundreds of others in dozens of other different terrorist organizations, force multiplied via a militarized/ co-opted civilian population.

Kind of like Iraq or Afghanistan must be these days, but probably on a much smaller scale, which is mind boggling all on its own.

 

[Infanteer]

Got a question . How many Aircraft would take to drop a company group ,a battle group or god help us a Brigade ?
I seem to recall that it used to take 14 C 130 K's to drop an British airborne battle group.

With a C-130 J, you can get the F Echelon of a Rifle Company out in 2.  Add on some bits and bobs and you are looking at 3. 

 

[McG]

How many more aircraft are required to keep a reinforced company supplied once it is on the ground and land/sea lines of communication have not been established?  Let's assume a far north deployment scenario, and another Caribbean deployment scenario? 

 

[Infanteer]

I've seen a company's supply of water, rations and an upload of ammo in CDS configuration on a single C-130.  It was 3 x containers, with most of the space being taken by rations.

 

[MilEME09]

I've seen a company's supply of water, rations and an upload of ammo in CDS configuration on a single C-130.

how often would those drops need to be? weekly, twice a week? every two weeks?

 

[Infanteer]

Sorry, I should have elaborated.  48 hours of supply on those 3 containers.  So, that implies a drop by one plane every 48 hours.

 

[Old Sweat]

At some stage, probably fairly early on, you are going to have to prepare for withdrawal of the force and evacuation of casualties, plus build up including strategic communications. I am not up to speed on a J model's capabilities, but this implies at least a few aircraft to drop in a follow on force to build an airfield, establish an operating base including a hospital and work on sustaining the initial force.