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Future Canadian Airborne Capability and Organisation! Or, is it Redundant? (a merged thread)

The Airborne was disbanded after the Somalia incident. I understood it best when I read "The Sharp End: A Soldiers Story" by James R. Davis. I highly recommend the book to you, because it can answer your question about the disbanding of the paratroopers quite well.
 
Elwood said:
The Airborne was disbanded after the Somalia incident. I understood it best when I read "The Sharp End: A Soldiers Story" by James R. Davis. I highly recommend the book to you, because it can answer your question about the disbanding of the paratroopers quite well.

Elwood:
Please refrain from making comments for which you have only partial information. Yes the incident in Somalia played a part in the CAR disbandment but that was not the whole story.
Politically the disbandmentt was the easiest route at the time. Much easier than fixing the problems & very much faster.
 
ChristopherRobin said:
The CABC was then moved and called the CPC where new t-shirts were made (old-style CABC-logo wings with ex-coelis written underneath).

\

CABC moved from Edmonton to Trenton because Air Command had closed the former as a flying base and moved the Hercs to Winnipeg. In fact this move was afoot before the closeout of the Regiment in early 1995-as I recall the Aerial Delivery Training moved there first, followed by the rest of the unit. As a former member of both CABC and the Regiment it hurt bad to have the word Airborne declared dirty. As for t shirts your Pet experience does not surprise me given the leadership of the base at the time-same politically correct guy that decided no one could have a beer on a Friday afternoon at Happy Hour until 1600, ginger ale only. However in 1999 I did buy some t's and sweatshirts at CPC that did say Airborne on them. Not sure what they are selling today and the place has been renamed again-a real mouthful.(Land Advanced Warfare Centre)
 
It was disbanded "after" the Somalia incident. I didn't write it was disbanded "because" of the Somalia incident.
 
    The Canadian Airborne Regiment was disbanded due to the fact that the liberal government of the time felt that they had been humiliated by the death of Shidane Arone. The carefully cultivated image of the Canadian soldier was destroyed with a few snaps of a camera, and the actions of one man cost a country it's finest regiment. The idea that the Airborne was disbanded over video tapes can be dismissed by the fact that the 1994 White Paper on defence makes no mention of paratroopers. The decision had been made.
    From March 5th 1995 Canada has been the only Western nation without a parachute capable force of at least battalion size. The Jump Companies are non operational as they are too small to fight and too big to hide. The only answer is to bring the Canadian Airborne Regiment back to the Canadian Order of Battle with an apology to all former members. 
 
I just read over the Somalia Affair on Wikipeida and I gotta say thats ****ed up what happened over there. And it wasnt just us, apparently the Italians and Belgians did some nasty things too.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia_Affair
 
Best time in my Military career was serving as an  "Airborne Sapper". Having ready all the posts above I tend to agree that the disbandment was a 'Knee jerk" reaction by Ott to a situation they were losing control over.

Glad to see the CSOR came around when it did it.  Along with the JTF it gives our troops an oppertunity to challange themsleves.

 
the Govt of the day wanted to reduce our strength.
The CAR made the choice easy.  Other than being the youngest Regiment on the Orbat AND being a one battalion Regiment AND coming out of the Somalia afair, it was easy for the Gov't to decide on a "disband" and "decry" policy throughout the whole Inquiry.
 
THE FUTURE OF CANADIAN AIRBORNE FORCES—PART 2
follow link for article and some interesting conclusions.

It appears that if Canada is to have airborne forces again it will not be due to a clear
and pervasive role.

Despite the emotion, the tradition, political manoeuvring or the wishful extrapolation
of possibilities, Canada does not need airborne forces. It is far better to honour those
who have served this country as airborne soldiers by holding their accomplishments high
and letting their memories live on than it is to create something lacking purpose,
something that has more potential to be less than envisioned rather than all that it once
was.
 
Removed all previous stuff that would have gone nowhere fast.  If there is nothing productive to post, leave the thread be - that includes silver jump wing types.
 
Agreed.  But since we currently have a Special Operations Regiment, and threads dealing with it, can we not lock this thread?
 
You could but the Special Operations Regiment has very little to do with the concepts discussed in this thread.

 
Just finished reading an interview with the current CLS, LGen Peter Devlin in Esprit de Corps.  Now before somebody jumps on the 'I hate Scott Taylor...EdC is a rag I wouldn't even use to wipe my butt with...' bandwagon, there was an interesting comment made by the CLS in Vol 17, Issue #10, page 26:

"We are examining things like genuinely light infantry as opposed to battalions minus vehicles, properly resourced and with the mindset that they are light infantry.  There are helicopters going into CFB Petawawa. I think that we need to have a very rich air mobile capability.
Where our vehicles are, the number of vehicles, the combination of light and mechanized infantry battalions are all things that we are looking at to give us the flexibility and the respect for the resourcing to allow us to train, train to excite, and train to be ready."


Usually when someone at the GO/FO level starts making inferences or nuances like the CLS just did, it means that these are initiatives which they're looking at in terms of transforming the organization they control.  The prior CLS was instrumental in harmonizing the infantry battalion structures into a hybrid mechanized role, whereby two rifle companies were mechanized around the LAV-III platform and the third would be light infantry, however operationally, we saw that all 3 companies were mechanized for the current Afghanistan mission. 

Based on the comments that LGen Devlin made, what is the likelihood that we will see a return of the 3 light infantry battalions? 

Will we see a consolidation of 3 light infantry battalions (1 battalion from each of the Regular Force regiments) into a light infantry brigade based in Petawawa as part of a 'rich air mobile capability' with the Chinooks?

Is this move due to the fact that we've only ever had enough LAV-IIIs for 6 infantry battalions, prior to CMTC and a number of vehicles being destroyed in the current war in Afghanistan, let alone trying to fleet manage the existing number of LAV-IIIs for 9 infantry battalions?

As part of the current government's emphasis on arctic sovereignty, perhaps there may be a case to be made for a light, airmobile (not necessarily parachute capable/airborne) infantry centric army force structure which could be rapidly deployed to the Arctic.  A 3 battalion light infantry brigade sized force would allow for an operational readiness cycle which would result in us always have a light infantry battalion ready for immediate deployment for operational areas or missions whereby a mechanized force may not be ideally suited (i.e. Afghanistan 2002), or necessary (Haiti 2010).    Having the remainder of the 6 light infantry battalions would allow for a concurrent operational readiness cycle whereby we could have both a light and heavy battalion available for deployment. 
Do we have the capability to concurrently force generate 2 battalion/battlegroup sized units (1 light and one mech)?
As an alternative to 3 light infantry battalions in a brigade formation, would we be better off with the former mix of 2 mech - 1 light in the brigades?
What about a single, independent light infantry battlegroup comprised of sub-units representing each of the 3 regular force regiments (i.e. Canadian Airborne Regiment orbat) that is constantly on a high readiness footing?  Would this create a redundancy with CSOR in the battalion/company sized light infantry direct action role?

Do we need permanent light infantry battalions, or can we institute a training regimen that modularizes our infantry force structure whereby all infanteers are skilled in mechanized and light infantry operations and we can 'plug & play' as per mission requirements?  Despite the CF tendency to promote a 'general purpose capability' over 'specialized niches', are we going to have the money, training resources, and time to be able to cover such a broad spectrum, so that the end result is an infantry force which is as adept at conducting a mechanized hasty attack as it is at conducting an airmobile assault as it is to conducting footborne patrols in mountainous terrain?
 
No redundancy with CSOR that I could see they are SF/SOF nothing they do would be Bn size by my scope of thinking. The info I have from looking around is they are more based on a USSF concept so 6-12 guys Max.

An Airmobile Bg would be akin to 101st (AA) and would/could be useful. As for force generation well that's for much bigger heads then me.
 
BulletMagnet said:
No redundancy with CSOR that I could see they are SF/SOF nothing they do would be Bn size by my scope of thinking. The info I have from looking around is they are more based on a USSF concept so 6-12 guys Max.

An Airmobile Bg would be akin to 101st (AA) and would/could be useful. As for force generation well that's for much bigger heads then me.

I clarified my earlier post regarding a single high readiness light infantry battalion and CSOR.  What my main concern about redundancy was in regard to battalion and company sized direct action roles, not so much the US Army SF's ODA type structure and missions, whether they be direct action, or advisory/training.
 
I think that if the light infantry battalions do return, they will likely be the same units that were light prior to mechanizing for Afghanistan e.g. 3VP, 3RCR, and 3R22eR. Regardless of whether or not those battalions are now mechanized, the "spirit" or mindset of the light infantry that the CLS spoke of certainly exists already within those organizations. The fact that helicopters are going into Pet and that there is a need for a "rich" airmobile capability is a few steps short of a major reorganization along the lines of the light infantry brigade concept.

As for CSOR, they won't mount battalion, or likely even company-sized direct action units. There simply aren't enough of them, and they guys they do have are better employed in other roles. This is what I suspect BulletMagnet was trying to say.
 
I have advocated on other threads about a light infantry/commando organization. Now a couple of points to chew on mentally before we fire this up.

#1. Mission needs dictate how and why the infantry move. If we are operating in a mountainous or heavy wooded area, then mechanized may not be the way to go. We need our "mech" battalions to be flexible enough to go both ways.

#2. There are some skill sets that do require more than a one week exercise to develop and maintain. Arctic or cold weather skills must/should be practiced by all infantry battalions every winter (Unless ops dictate otherwise). Canada has a huge chunk of tundra and we need to be able to operate in that environment. As well Mountain ops skills are important. We should encourage each battalion to do a mountain ops school either in the fall or spring. I would run it for about 4-6 weeks. It would consist of doing basic mountain ops qual/refresher and then doing some collective trg in mountainous terrain.

#3. Now that we are in the business of operating Chinooks, we can take airmobile ops to another level. I will let the experts speak on that. I would alos like to see us expand our amphibious capability, but thats another topic (NO I do not mean to the extent the USMC does)

If I think of more stuff, I'll add it in.
 
1.  Force Generation rules all.  It's nice to have a certain capability, but if it can't be generated and sustained then I'd suggest it is of limited use to the Force Generators.  More disparity between force generation and force employment means more shuffling and more re-tasking and ad hocery, which makes for more turbulence.  I think others are recognizing this as well.

2.  Winter warfare always seems to hold a sacred place in the Army's heart.  What do we really want/need.  Winter indoc in terms of making sure we don't die if we are out in the freezing cold for over a day?  Or do we want genuine winter warfare capability?  If so, I'd suggest that stringing a toboggan up and wandering around in snowshoes is the wrong way to achieve this.

3.  ArmyRick makes a good call for "skill-camps"; the British recently moved away from (but still maintain some aspects of) the Arms Plot system.  Aspects of this, as Rick mentioned, could be worked into the Force Generation cycle to good measure.

4.  Air mobility isn't that hard.  I've seen a "mech" company (I prefer to call it a Rifle Company) conducting fast-roping onto objectives on air mobile assaults from amphibious assault ships - it wasn't SOF-standard precision but it was what one would require out of conventional forces.  It wasn't a black art for them to learn and I don't know if this requires full-scale reorganization of the Forces to accomplish.

5.  Finally, most here know my thoughts on the "Light Infantry Mindset" - I'll restate my view that it is a bit of a fallacy and that all it's positive aspects are part of a "Good Infantry Mindset" which we have and should continue to refine.  Never discount the ability of good soldiers to use vehicles to operate in complex environments to increase their effectiveness - I'll point disbelievers to William Slim's thoughts on the matter (I also agree with his thoughts a parachutes to).
 
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