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Garvin's rant about the AIDS conference

Sheerin said:
Conferences are one of the best way for researchers and clinicians, social workers, et cetera, to get to gether and discuss each others ideas, experiments, theories and so forth. 

Like the highly effective lemon, garlic and beetroot therapy??  ;D

I think this conference in particular has strayed from its scientific roots into a forum of advocacy, and in doing so has become far too political. There was a article in the paper about this, I forget which... important scientific breakthroughs were completely overshadowed by political posturing and celebrity photo ops...
 
Sheerin said:
i've been to a few, relativley minor archaeological and anthropology conferences and while there is a lot of that going there is an exchange of information between the particpants. 

Your blanket statements seem to have no vailidity.  How can you say that nothing good has come from certain medical or other scholastic conferences?  How do you know that absolutely no one there benefited from their particpation.  Yes I conceed that some forms of self-congratulatory masturbation happen at conferences but just becuase a few people do that doesnt' mean that the conference is a bust.

Every conference, for some, offer insight, knowledge, and good network contacts. That is not what I was commenting on. The big Aids conference over the last week was entirely about politics for the media and the organizers. Did some people benefit from the conference? You betcha!
Not everybody goes to conferences to kick back and party. There are a lot of hard working dedicated people who really want to learn stuff and conferences accomplish a lot of that. The latest Aids one was designed and motivated to gather media and public attention. Did you think Bill Clinton, Bill Gates, et al came for quiet discussions. They came to lend publicity to an issue!!


 
COBRA-6 said:
Like the highly effective lemon, garlic and beetroot therapy??  ;D

I think this conference in particular has strayed from its scientific roots into a forum of advocacy, and in doing so has become far too political. There was a article in the paper about this, I forget which... important scientific breakthroughs were completely overshadowed by political posturing and celebrity photo ops...

Agreed...and I find that unfortunate :-\

HL
 
Great Thread!!
Seems to me that Aids, like Cancer is making sooo much money for the Pharmaceutical Companies (wish I could remember what they were called in anther post...that statement was brilliant!!), that the chance of seeing them gone anytime soon is slim.  Do I think there is a cure out there already....in the case of Cancer...you bet your boots I do.  But how many medical practitioners, etc. etc. would loose business if those illnesses were history.
What a travesty this is. 
 
canuckt

You may wish to either reconsider that post, which frankly even to a non-medical type is offensive and reeking of conspiracy theory, or provide some verifiable information to support it.

regards

BAR
 
Did you think Bill Clinton, Bill Gates, et al came for quiet discussions. They came to lend publicity to an issue!!

Those individuals only account for a very minor fraction of the conference's attendees.  Their job is mostly superficial, to act as mouth pieces.  To suggest that the entire conference is awash becuase of the many lectures and speaches given a small fraction were devoted to grabbing the media's attention is ludicrous.  I'm just looking at the only schedule for the conference and the vast majority of the scheduled talks were of scholastic value.  Take a look for yourself http://www.aids2006.org/PAG/ProgrammeAtAGlance.aspx

As for the overshadowing, who is really to blame for that?  The event organizers?  The media?  Both?  I would venture to guess that the vast majority of the western public don't really care about presentations entitled Clinical correlations of inflammatory cytokines in the female genital tract during acute HIV-1 infection but researchers and medical professions would.  As such do you think the media is going to spend any time highlighting talks such as this? 
Also whats wrong with adding publicity to issues?  If it gets more money for research then its a wonderufl thing.  If it gets more people interested in the topic, again great, or in my opinion more importantly, it gets some young kid interested in the topic it may, eventually, lead them into the realm of medical research and they may in the future make singificant discoveries that will help untold thousands.

So no, I don't believe there is anything wrong with publicity, as long as some real work is done in the back ground.

Do I think there is a cure out there already....in the case of Cancer...you bet your boots I do.  But how many medical practitioners, etc. etc. would loose business if those illnesses were history.
What a travesty this is. 

And what evidence do you have to support this claim? 
 
Old Sweat said:
canuckt

You may wish to either reconsider that post, which frankly even to a non-medical type is offensive and reeking of conspiracy theory, or provide some verifiable information to support it.

regards

BAR
oh, let him go! I wait with bated breath for this one. (I bought stock in tin foil.)
 
actually lets just ignore him... if we do there is a chance this thread could survive
 
he knows about the lemon/garlic/beetroot miracle cure!
 
Worry not this thread will survive. Sorry to disrupt your chatter!
BTW...he is a she  ;)
Sorry fellas but I do not have, nor want, shares in tinfoil, and think beets and lemon juice would be a pretty nauseous mixture.  It was not my intent to insult medics or health care professionals who are doing their job as taught or instructed, in any walk of life.
Conspiracy theory???  And I was foolish enough to think, that anyone's opinion could be spoken here, without ridicule being returned.  Is this how you treat everyone who would dare to have a different opinion from yours?  Ever hear about healthy debate on opposing positions?
I said it was my opinion. Agree or disagree for whatever reason.  It is not incumbant upon me to explain or demonstrate irrefutable evidence.  That would probably be treated with the same type of replies.
8)
 
Would a cancer conference attract 20,000 delegates and be so political, that a sitting PM would be lambasted for not attending?  I think not.

EDIT:  Da Cretch was never attacked this viciously when he didn't attend the last conference held in Canada...this reeks of hypocrisy on the part of the conference organisers and the media.
 
Here, from yesterday’s Globe and Mail, is a position (that of Dr. Anthony Daniels) with which I can agree.  It is reproduced here under the Fair Dealing provisons of the Copyright Act.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060824.BCMASON24/TPStory/TPComment/?query=
An old-fashioned approach to drug addiction

GARY MASON

VANCOUVER -- Backers of Vancouver's safe injection site better hope Stephen Harper doesn't get his hands on a new book that takes a decidedly different view on heroin addiction and harm-reduction strategy.

The book is Romancing Opiates: Pharmacological Lies and the Addiction Bureaucracy. It is written by Theodore Dalrymple, whose real name is Anthony Daniels.

Mr. Daniels is a recently retired psychiatrist who worked in Britain's hospitals and prison system for years. When London's The Spectator approached him to write an occasional column about his prison experiences, Mr. Daniels decided to use a pseudonym. He and an editor came up with Theodore Dalrymple.

"We figured it sounded suitably old-fashioned and ill-tempered," Mr. Daniels explained yesterday by telephone from Ardèche, France, where he now lives with his wife.

Old-fashioned is what many would call his views on drug addiction.

Especially people like Vancouver Mayor Sam Sullivan and the boisterous supporters of the safe injection site for intravenous drug users. The project, known as Insite, will be closed Sept. 12 unless the federal government extends its mandate.

So far, the Prime Minister has been non-committal.

Mr. Daniels wouldn't keep it open. He doesn't believe the people who use it, to shoot up their own heroin with clean needles supplied by the centre, are sick or deserve our help.

"I suppose the argument for the safe injection site is it would reduce the number of deaths," he said. "But I don't see why we should reduce the number of deaths. It is not our responsibility to do so. It's the responsibility of the addicts themselves.

"If they want to inject themselves with heroin it's a very bad choice. If people die from it, I don't feel any particular guilt because I don't feel any responsibility for it."

Needless to say, that is not a view heard much around these parts.

Mr. Daniels believes that if consequences are removed for people's actions, the very idea of human agency disappears. Life would have no meaning if there were no consequences for our actions.

"If we actually say to people, 'Do what you want and when it turns out the consequences are dreadful we'll take over,' then we allow people to continue down that path," said Mr. Daniels, whose book has made waves in Britain. "We are simply reinforcing bad behaviour."

Mr. Daniels said he is not without compassion; he understands that many addicts are products of their environments. Many have had horrible upbringings. But that doesn't justify a drug-reduction strategy that is, in his view, fundamentally infantilizing.

"Doctors lie to addicts and addicts lie back," he said. "The addicts pretend to be ill and doctors pretend to treat them. But there is no treatment because there is nothing wrong with the addicts. It's a matter of empirical fact that everything we think we know about heroin addiction is wrong."

For instance, Mr. Daniels said, one of the great myths that has been built up around heroin addiction concerns withdrawal. He said the side effects are not nearly as bad as addicts would have you believe. The delirium tremors alcoholics experience are far more serious.

When he worked in a Birmingham prison, addicts would come to him to be examined. He sometimes watched them in the waiting room before they entered his consulting room. Often they would be laughing and joking. As soon as they walked through his door they would be moaning and holding their stomach, pleading for a prescription drug to dull their pain.

When he told them he'd witnessed them laughing and joking minutes earlier, the addicts would often say: "Well, it was worth a try."

"This is a very common experience and yet we systematically overlook the meaning of it," said Mr. Daniels. "Scores of thousands of American servicemen addicted themselves to heroin in Vietnam. When they came home most gave it up without any treatment. It can be done."

And Mao Zedong convinced 20 million Chinese to kick opium -- by threatening to kill them. "Not likely an option today," Mr. Daniels conceded.

He said a whole addiction bureaucracy has been established and thrives by propagating the notion that heroin and cocaine addicts are ill. In fact, he suggested, people treating the addicts need addicts far more than the addicts need them.

"Now you're going to ask, do I have a solution? And the answer is no," said Mr. Daniels.

"As long as man wishes to escape from the existential limitations and difficulties of his existence, then finding bliss at the end of a needle will always seem a viable alternative.

"And I have no answer for that."

gmason@globeandmail.com

I agree with this: ”… I don't see why we should reduce the number of deaths. It is not our responsibility to do so. It's the responsibility of the addicts themselves… If they want to inject themselves with heroin it's a very bad choice. If people die from it, I don't feel any particular guilt because I don't feel any responsibility for it."  I have made bad choices; I was, sometimes, helped to make a better choice but in the final analysis the choices, good or bad, were – still are – my personal responsibility.  I can listen, or not, to good advice from leaders, friends, relatives, even well meaning strangers, but only I can effect changes in the choices I make – for good or ill.  If I make a fatally wrong choice then I and only I will be responsible for the unpleasant outcome.

I also agree that Canada has a “drug-reduction strategy that is fundamentally infantilizing.”

I do not want to see dead bodies all over the streets so I suggest we invest in better street cleaning services.

----------
On another note: PM Harper was right to give Toronto a pass in favour of Iqualuit and Alert.  The AIDS Conference is over and AIDS, and all its celebrity advocates (for a cure, in most cases) have retreated to the Society/Gossip pages while the discussions of Arctic sovereignty and, perhaps, a new Northern Base are still alive and well; see, e.g: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060825.ARCTICPORT25/TPStory and http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060825.ARCTICSCHOOL25/TPStory


 
Injection sites so healthy people can kill themselves while very sick/in pain people must rot away naturally making money for Doctors/hospitals........how did we get here?
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
how did we get here?
by removing the concepts of Responsibility and Accountability from our mentality. By promoting a Cult Of Victimhood. "Nothing is your fault. You aren't responsible".
 
paracowboy said:
by removing the concepts of Responsibility and Accountability from our mentality. By promoting a Cult Of Victimhood. "Nothing is your fault. You aren't responsible".

Having been born into a particularly pathetic generation, and having spent years working in the homelessness support / food bank systems, I spend every day dealing with people who one way or another refuse to suck it up and deal with their bullshit. The excuses I hear for why people can't resolve even minor challenges in their lives and the blame they assign for their failures are absolutely mind-boggling. Also, having grown up a bit of a punk rock kid I've watched far too many friends throw their lives away to drugs - I have absolutely no sympathy for drugs users and could care less about any isolated health concerns they face.

BUT

I fully support safe injection sites. I'm not sure the intention was ever to maintain quality of life for junkies, rather just to be prudent in respect to the public health. Aids and Hepatitis are rampant in the intravenous drug community, and safe sites with needle exchange at least cut down on user to user transmissions. Why should the rest of us care? It's not too difficult to imagine how these diseases can spread out of the user communities. Something I've seen far too often is teenage girls from the suburbs get pissed off with their parents getting close to the end of the school  year, run away and end up hanging out with their fellow 'summer homeless' in the big cities. They spend all summer getting drunk and stoned hanging out with sketchy dudes, get raped just once if they're lucky, eventually start missing the comforts of home and escape back to their mom & dad, and can't even remember half the things they did all summer because they were so high. If she's lucky she'll see a doctor sometime for something and they'll catch that she has hepatitis or aids, but maybe not. It's estimated that 25% of Canadians with HIV have no idea that they're carrying it, and studies consistently show that young Canadians in particular do not use/improperly practice safe sex techniques.

There are many ways that the health problems of drug users can impact average Canadians, and given the ridiculous explosion of Aids in Africa which suggests that after a certain level of infection it may very well be unstoppable - and the extraordinary cost to our public health care system of treating a single Aids patient over their lifetime,  preventing the spread of highly communicable diseases is a worthwhile investment IMHO.

I think a lot of the opposition to safe injection sites comes from people who feel that it labels drug use as an acceptable social behaviour, or suggests that we're letting people deny that their addictions are their own fault. Maybe that's true, but is a moral victory worth the financial cost to the health care system, as well as the opportunity cost of the lost lives of sick Canadians who for ex. might have survived another illness had the money only been there to bump up a surgery 6 months?

It's a tough call, I'll admit, especially for politicians. I was actually having this debate last night with people who work in the PMO - seems they're trying to decide Harper's position as well!
 
Safe injection sites are great.  Wait til we've got a room full, lock the doors, and pump in the sarin gas.  IV druggies, crack and meth heads are a plague, and dealers are the modern day typhoid Mary.... cull the herd.
 
Kat Stevens said:
Safe injection sites are great.  Wait til we've got a room full, lock the doors, and pump in the sarin gas.  IV druggies, crack and meth heads are a plague, and dealers are the modern day typhoid Mary.... cull the herd.

A few years ago some friends and I started a punk band that sang about killing drug users. I should send you a cd, something tells me you'd love it....  ;)
 
http://www.torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2006/09/01/1792238-sun.html



AIDS stay-behinds
Up to 150 delegates to last month's T.O. conference have filed refugee claims

By TOM GODFREY, TORONTO SUN



A top Eritrean AIDS activist is among some 150 delegates of last month's international AIDS conference in Toronto who stayed behind and filed refugee claims in a bid to remain in Canada, immigration officials confirm.

Amanuel Tesfamichael, 32, had to sprint to a waiting car at Pearson airport to escape Eritrean agents as he arrived for the AIDS 2006 conference.

Most of the claimants have the deadly disease and include a large group of women from hardest-hit South Africa and citizens of El Salvador, Eritrea, Uganda and Zimbabwe.

"It feels good to be free," said Tesfamichael, who has the disease. "I like Canada and the people here."

The activist, who is founder of Eritrea's 6,000-member association for people living with AIDS, was allowed to travel to Canada on the condition he surrender his passport to two government minders, who were also delegates.

Tesfamichael said he was given his passport for processing on landing at Pearson and managed to bolt to a pre-determined meeting with men who spirited him to a waiting car.

"I was only allowed to leave my homeland for 10 days," he said. "The government didn't want me to leave the country."

Many of the claimants are staying at Toronto hostels awaiting hearing dates before an immigration board, officials said.

24,000 PARTICIPANTS

Canadian immigration spokesman Karen Shadd-Evelyn confirmed yesterday that up to 150 claims were received from the 24,000 participants at the Aug. 13-18 conference.

"We can't talk about specific claims," Shadd-Evelyn said. "We cannot release their country of origins or other information."

Francisco Rico-Martinez, of the FCJ Refugee Centre in Toronto, said three of the claimants -- Tesfamichael, a man from El Salvador and a woman from Zimbabwe -- were referred to his "gender-friendly" hostel.

"Both of the men have AIDS," Rico-Martinez said yesterday. "They face persecution and discrimination at home."

He said Tesfamichael faces persecution or jail if he returns to Eritrea for violating the 10-day permit.

Rico-Martinez said the claimants are treated in their native countries as outcasts, or have little or no medicine. He said some are discriminated against by doctors, who don't want to treat them.

Joan Anderson, a senior adviser of AIDS 2006, said 14,000 of the delegates were from outside North America.

Melissa Anderson, of the Immigration and Refugee Board, said it'll take about a year before the claimants find out if they're accepted in Canada. About 48% of all claimants are accepted in Canada as refugees.
 
Is there not something that invalidates immigration if you have a disease or condition that taxes the medicare system?

Do the sponsoring agencies that encouraged these people to claim refugee status now become responsible for the cost of their medication and care?
 
GAP said:
Is there not something that invalidates immigration if you have a disease or condition that taxes the medicare system?

Do the sponsoring agencies that encouraged these people to claim refugee status now become responsible for the cost of their medication and care?

Can you imagine the  backlash Harper would  have to endure if we turned them away though? Who cares about the cost of meds and care, it's only coming from our taxes, (and you know it's not hard for the government to blow that away) and the way it looks now a days , there's lots of my hard earned money to fill the troughs on Parliament Hill.  Welcome to Canada  , where you're free to do anything you like.... including take advantage of us....yes we have laws and rules here , but the secret is .....they're just for show. Ssshh ...don't tell anyone!  ::)
 
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