GBAD - The return of 'FOBS'

[SeaKingTacco]

Can any of the signaller types deduce anything from the antenna array beside the radio?

Sat Com antenna?

 

[PuckChaser]

Sat Com antenna?

Correct, directional TACSAT antenna also known as a Christmas Tree. That's the medium sized, theres a large one that's about 6 feet in size assembled for a TOC and a smaller one that folds into a pop can size thats easier for manpacks.

 

[Kirkhill]

A video about the Starstreak System and Sky Sabre.

It shows the inside of the Stormer-Starstreak simulator and a simulated engagement.
It also shows how heavy the MANPADS version of Starstreak actually is.

UK showcases missile systems to send to Poland

The Army is not saying how much equipment is heading to Poland, but says it is purely for defence.

www.forces.net

 

[daftandbarmy]

A video about the Starstreak System and Sky Sabre.

It shows the inside of the Stormer-Starstreak simulator and a simulated engagement.
It also shows how heavy the MANPADS version of Starstreak actually is.

UK showcases missile systems to send to Poland

The Army is not saying how much equipment is heading to Poland, but says it is purely for defence.

www.forces.net

Stormer: a 40 year old platform, from the CVR (T) family, that just keeps on ticking....

Alvis Stormer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kirkhill]

Stormer: a 40 year old platform, from the CVR (T) family, that just keeps on ticking....

Alvis Stormer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Some designs just work

 

[Kirkhill]

The USAF Strikes Back

The Army wants the USAF's missiles for Long Range Precision Fires.

The Air Force wants the Army's SPH's for Ground Based Air Defense.

Railgun Ammo-Firing Cannon Being Eyed By Air Force For Cruise Missile Defense (Updated)

Air Force self-propelled guns firing hypervelocity shells could be a novel answer to the cruise missile threat abroad and at home.

www.thedrive.com

 

[FJAG]

Somewhere between that cartoon and reality are an awful lot of technical challenges.

 

[Kirkhill]

Somewhere between that cartoon and reality are an awful lot of technical challenges.

Maaaybe

Army and Navy cannons shoot down drone 'cruise missiles' - here’s a video of the cannons

A U.S. Army M109 Paladin-based 155mm howitzer and a U.S. Navy deck gun fired Hypervelocity Projectiles (HVP), successfully downing BQM-167 target drones

americanmilitarynews.com

 

[Prairie canuck]

Or how about we stop pretending to the Government and the Canadian public that the CF exists to be a team of guardian angels on standby to perform aid to civil powers duties as a back handed way to get the equipment we need and instead explain to them that there are bad people out there and we need to have the ability to kill them if required to defend our nation and its interests.

Every time a CAF member speaks to the public they short start with Rick's immortal words;
We are not the Public Service of Canada, We are the Canadian Armed forces, our job is to kill people (who want to do harm to us or our Allies)
Best PR clarification EVER!

 

[Kirkhill]

This article is almost three weeks old now - I don't recall seeing anything with these details before.

Canada to Spend $1 Billion on New Radar System

The government of Canada will spend more than $1 billion on a new radar system to protect major North American cities.

www.thedefensepost.com

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Canada to Spend $1 Billion on New Radar System​

JOE SABALLA APRIL 28, 2022
1 MINUTE READ

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Canada will spend more than $1 billion on a new radar system to protect major North American cities, according to a report by local media outlet Ottawa Citizen.
The radar system will be built in southern Canada to monitor Arctic airspace and protect vital US and Canadian locations.
According to a defense briefing held earlier this month, the over-the-horizon radar system will provide “long-range surveillance” of northern approaches to the population centers in the region.
The north-facing, high-frequency radar is expected to be operational by 2028.
Military officials explained that the budget for the new system could rise once the country starts deploying it for military purposes.

‘Improving Continental Security’​

The plan to invest over $1 billion in a new radar system is part of Canada’s continuing efforts to improve continental security.
Canadian Defence Minister Anita Anand announced that the country is working to modernize the joint US-Canadian North American Aerospace Defence Command (NORAD) and North Warning System radars in the Arctic.
She stated that Canada will be bringing forward a “robust package” of investments to bolster its continental defense in partnership with the US.
The nation has also begun researching new technologies for increased continental security, including a Raytheon contract to study long-range, over-the-horizon radar detection.
“The current defence and security climate also has underscored that we need to do more to bolster our defences in Canada and North America at large,” Anand said.

Increased Defense Spending​

Earlier this month, Canada’s finance minister announced that the country is allocating more money to beef up its defense spending in the wake of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
A portion of the increased military budget has been earmarked to strengthen Canada’s surveillance and reconnaissance capabilities.
On Monday, the Canadian military said it is acquiring three spy planes (for CANSOFCOM - already in service?) for $247 million under a US foreign military sales agreement.
The Royal Canadian Navy also signed a contract with Swedish corporation Saab to upgrade its Halifax-class frigates with multi-role Sea Giraffe AMB naval radar antenna kits.

We appear to being fairly broad with the definitions of what is required here - Perhaps there is hope for SM3s for the Navy?

The RIM-161 Standard Missile 3 (SM-3) is a ship-based surface-to-air missile system used by the United States Navy to intercept short- and intermediate-range ballistic missiles as a part of Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System

 

[Kirkhill]

The problem with GBADs

90% success rate. High value targets defended. But....

100 MUSD per battery, 50 KUSD per interceptor, 300 USD per incoming missile.

For the cost of a single interceptor the enemy can put up over 150 offensive missiles. Flood the defence.

each Iron Dome battery is estimated to cost approximately $100 million, while each interceptor missile costs roughly $50,000.[2] By contrast, the simple, unsophisticated rockets utilized by Hamas and other militants can cost as little as $300 apiece. As a result, though overwhelmingly successful at protecting Israeli population centers and civilians of inestimable value, existing Israeli missile defenses have become a distinct drag on Israeli finances.

For the Israelis, with a 1239 km border, including coastlines, and a 22,145 km2 area, the answer is lasers. That area is roughly equivalent to the Greater Golden Horseshoe of Southern Ontario and the major metropolitan areas of Canada combined.

Egypt: 208 km Jordan: 307 km Lebanon: 81 km Syria: 83 km West Bank: 330 km Gaza Strip: 59 km Coastlines: 273 km

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2022/06/23/the_logic_of_israels_laser_wall_838770.html

Back the system with nuclear power?

 

[Kirkhill]

And the new wrinkle in Air Defence - Countering Hypersonics.

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2022/06/22/countering_hypersonics_838808.html

 

[FJAG]

That's a problem that's been of concern for quite a while. It scales down to which weapons to use against a $300 drone, how much anti-armour defence to put on your fighting vehicles and up to how much to pay for a missile defence which will stop x% of the nuclear strike missiles coming at your cities.

They don't call it an "arms race" and a "military-industrial complex" for nothing. Whenever I'm feeling particulalry cynical I wonder whether the Russians with their operations in Ukraine are are actually focused on seeing how much expensive defensive hardware they can strip out of NATO.

 

[suffolkowner]

Whenever I'm feeling particulalry cynical I wonder whether the Russians with their operations in Ukraine are are actually focused on seeing how much expensive defensive hardware they can strip out of NATO.

And when I'm feeling particularly cynical I wonder if the Americans are giving the Ukes just enough to keep on bleeding Russia but not enough for major action

 

[AmmoTech90]

The problem with GBADs

90% success rate. High value targets defended. But....

100 MUSD per battery, 50 KUSD per interceptor, 300 USD per incoming missile.

For the cost of a single interceptor the enemy can put up over 150 offensive missiles. Flood the defence.

For $300 per missile rocket a lot are going to miss. Shoot the threats. Works for Israel. Flood the offense. A rocket that you know will miss isn't a weapon.

 

[suffolkowner]

For $300 per missile rocket a lot are going to miss. Shoot the threats. Works for Israel. Flood the offense. A rocket that you know will miss isn't a weapon.

Is it even possible for there to be a miss? Surely the rockets are going to hit something? Isn't that the plan?

I don't think its directly comparable to our need to protect a high value target or overwatch so cost is probably not as important as avoiding taking out our own troops as colateral damage

 

[Weinie]

Is it even possible for there to be a miss? Surely the rockets are going to hit something? Isn't that the plan?

I don't think its directly comparable to our need to protect a high value target or overwatch so cost is probably not as important as avoiding taking out our own troops as colateral damage

How much is a town/city worth? How much value comes with the assurance that if your town comes under rocket fire that there is a system that will attempt to protect it? Hint: practical and psychological.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

How much is a town/city worth? How much value comes with the assurance that if your town comes under rocket fire that there is a system that will attempt to protect it? Hint: practical and psychological.

When the first rocket lands and kills a child, or your grandmother, or your cousin's brother's niece... the price tag vanishes.

Israel has spent every day of it's existence defending itself from people who want to see them wiped off the face of the earth. Ukraine is now in a similar position with Russia. The juice is worth the squeeze and then some, especially when voters are also the ones in the crosshairs.

The last time a major Canadian was attacked by an external enemy was the sacking of York in 1813... when muskets were cheap and "bombardment" looked very different. We have no first hand experience with that kind of loss feels like.

How much is a city worth? Depends who you're asking

 

[DBNSG]

When the first rocket lands and kills a child, or your grandmother, or your cousin's brother's niece... the price tag vanishes.

Israel has spent every day of it's existence defending itself from people who want to see them wiped off the face of the earth. Ukraine is now in a similar position with Russia. The juice is worth the squeeze and then some, especially when voters are also the ones in the crosshairs.

The last time a major Canadian was attacked by an external enemy was the sacking of York in 1813... when muskets were cheap and "bombardment" looked very different. We have no first hand experience with that kind of loss feels like.

How much is a city worth? Depends who you're asking

No one alive today has felt that loss but Halifax most certainly has experienced the devastation of War if indirectly back in 1917. Please remember in todays scale if the Halifax explosion happened to the present day GTA. That would amount to 198,000 dead and 800,000 permanently blinded, or maimed. About 40% of the industrial capacity of the City was permanently destroyed and unlike the rest of North America there was NO roaring twenties in the Halifax area. In fact it took until the Second World War for economic activity to return to robust levels. In terms of serious development I would argue that Halifax has only really recovered in the last ten years. Funny what a National commitment to building a Navy does for the civilian economy.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

No one alive today has felt that loss but Halifax most certainly has experienced the devastation of War if indirectly back in 1917. Please remember in todays scale if the Halifax explosion happened to the present day GTA. That would amount to 198,000 dead and 800,000 permanently blinded, or maimed. About 40% of the industrial capacity of the City was permanently destroyed and unlike the rest of North America there was NO roaring twenties in the Halifax area. In fact it took until the Second World War for economic activity to return to robust levels. In terms of serious development I would argue that Halifax has only really recovered in the last ten years. Funny what a National commitment to building a Navy does for the civilian economy.

You are correct that Halifax ceased to be for a good 20 years because of the explosion. I am not denying that we have had tragedies a plenty as a nation that give pause to think about our disaster and emergency response capabilities.

My point was strictly on hostile action from an external force in the form of missile or air attack requiring GBAD of a major city/facility.

Right now, if Kharkiv was Calgary; we'd be fucked. If Tel Aviv was Ottawa, we'd be fucked. If Odessa was Halifax or Victoria... you guessed it, we'd be fucked.

There isn't a thought to these outcomes because of the 200 and even 100 year gap in memory in both the political and electoral populations within this country; and it stems from a false belief that "It could never happen here!"

I pay for insurance not because I plan on running my car into a lamp post, but because when it does happen, I want to make sure I'm not completely screwed. We should view GBAD assets the same way.