Global Warming/Climate Change Super Thread

[Baz]

Gov is justifying a carbon tax for weather control. Making life more expensive isn’t going to do a lick for fires. This needs to be a provincial responsibility.

If we are dealing in facts...

"Making life more expensive" is an opinion not a fact. According to the Bank Of Canada (STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 16, 2023) the Carbon Tax is contributing 0.1% to inflation. Is there conflicting evidence that isn't just CPC talking points?

Even with the taxing on fuel the price is set by what the market can bear, which is true even in Europe where there are much higher taxes on fuels. In other words, the price at the pump is more dependent on what the oil companies can make the most profit from than on the tax structure. Even in regulated markets, like Nova Scotia, the weekly price adjustment comes from the market spot price (For gasoline, the reported product price is the volume-weighted average of the daily spot market prices reported in the reporting source prescribed by Section 15B of the components of gasoline set out in subsection (2).).

To be transparent, I am in favor of carbon tax and rebate (the Canadian program includes both), but I am not in favor of how it has been implemented by the current Canadian government. One of my greatest concerns with the implementation is the lack of transparency leading to the broadly held feeling it is being pushed down our throats.

 

[Aper]

You can store hydrocarbons. You can't store electricity.

Or can you ?



Basically, Hydro-Quebec brings forward the idea of using your EV's batteries to compensate for their pi$$-poor electrical system failing all the time during outages and high peaks domestic usage.

In other words; We'll sell you our electricity at a high price, but will use it free of charge when necessary to compensate our poorly-managed infrastructures and exportations to other provinces/country.

I'll keep my gasoline car as long as I can.

 

[lenaitch]

You can store hydrocarbons. You can't store electricity.

well, technically you can (DC only) - it's called a battery, and some are getting pretty big.

For your home:

https://www.tesla.com/en_ca/powerwall

Or bigger:

Ontario has just unveiled the largest electrical-grid battery project in Canada

Oneida Energy project will be made up of lithium-ion batteries, much like ones that power cellphones, laptops and electric vehicles but much bigger.

www.thestar.com

You can also store the potential energy used to create electricity (dams, pumped storage).

 

[Quirky]

To be transparent, I am in favor of carbon tax

There is no data suggesting a price on carbon reduces greenhouse emissions. It’s nothing more than another tax scam.

 

[Kirkhill]

well, technically you can (DC only) - it's called a battery, and some are getting pretty big.

For your home:

https://www.tesla.com/en_ca/powerwall

Or bigger:

Ontario has just unveiled the largest electrical-grid battery project in Canada

Oneida Energy project will be made up of lithium-ion batteries, much like ones that power cellphones, laptops and electric vehicles but much bigger.

www.thestar.com

You can also store the potential energy used to create electricity (dams, pumped storage).

I notice that the article references more natural gas plants for Ontario.

 

[Baz]

There is no data suggesting a price on carbon reduces greenhouse emissions. It’s nothing more than another tax scam.

I don't normally use Wikipedia as a primary reference, but blanket statements such as yours shows you have very little interest in reviewing actual data, so:

Positive impacts​

Research shows that carbon taxes effectively reduce greenhouse gas emissions.[8][50][51] Most economists assert that carbon taxes are the most efficient and effective way to curb climate change, with the least adverse economic effects.[52][53][54][10][55][56]

One study found that Sweden's carbon tax successfully reduced carbon dioxide emissions from transport by 11%.[50] A 2015 British Columbia study found that the taxes reduced greenhouse gas emissions by 5–15% while having negligible overall economic effects.[51] A 2017 British Columbia study found that industries on the whole benefited from the tax and "small but statistically significant 0.74 percent annual increases in employment" but that carbon-intensive and trade-sensitive industries were adversely affected.[57] A 2020 study of carbon taxes in wealthy democracies showed that carbon taxes had not limited economic growth.[58]

Carbon taxes appear to not adversely affect employment or GDP growth in Europe.[59] Their economic impact ranges from zero to modest positive.[59]

Wikipedia - Carbon Tax- Impacts - Positive Impacts

 

[Quirky]

Europe. Ok.

 

[YZT580]

Europe. Ok.

BEAUTIFUL. Game, Set, and Match

 

[Baz]

BEAUTIFUL. Game, Set, and Match

Really, because he hasn't done one iota to change my mind.

Oh yeah, I forgot: I'm mentally inept, easily deceived, and a lemming.

Good thing there is the ignore button.

 

[Halifax Tar]

It really doesn't matter what Canada does. Why we with think further burdening our people with additional taxation will fix climate change; when China and other bash on is beyond me.

I mean I get it, we have climate warriors and they want to I feel useful. But their desire for their cause shouldn't hurt my pocket book.

 

[suffolkowner]

Carbon taxes are the best bet. Cap and trade for large emitters. People are welcome to recommend other avenues. But these remain the economists choice

 

[QV]

It really doesn't matter what Canada does. Why we with think further burdening our people with additional taxation will fix climate change; when China and other bash on is beyond me.

I mean I get it, we have climate warriors and they want to I feel useful. But their desire for their cause shouldn't hurt my pocket book.

There are other ways. But those ways would enrich Canadians. Can't have that, as the PM said: "there is no business case for NG"

 

[Baz]

It really doesn't matter what Canada does. Why we with think further burdening our people with additional taxation will fix climate change; when China and other bash on is beyond me.

I mean I get it, we have climate warriors and they want to I feel useful. But their desire for their cause shouldn't hurt my pocket book.

Canada is a G-8 nation whose standard of living is largely a result of industrialization, even a a quite cold climate. We are amongst the worst emitters per capita in the world (List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita). A lot of China's "bashing on" is a direct result of our insatiable thirst for cheap "stuff."

I'm not a climate warrior by any stretch; I live in a large house in the outer suburbs, and commute back and forth to it. However, I feel that the taxes I pay as a result of that (carbon tax and property tax being the big ones, even though I'm fully aware the metro area is helping pay for my lifestyle) is an appropriate charge for my chosen lifestyle.

Is it possible that the high taxation we are experiencing is a result of each social group demanding the free stuff they want, and then deriding the other free stuff they don't want, while the government tries to make everyone happy? In other words, it's on us, not them?

I also don't understand the fixation on "blaming the government" when the energy providers have been making record profits since COVID.

My wish (which won't happen) is that the majority of Canadians felt this way and choose to do their part, and in doing so we could develop the technologies to make us world leaders in the inevitable energy transition (and make a lot of money doing so), and we were led by a government that wanted to achieve that. My fear is we continue to allow us ourselves to be divided and end up where some right wing types seem to think we already are.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Canada is a G-8 nation whose standard of living is largely a result of industrialization, even a a quite cold climate. We are amongst the worst emitters per capita in the world (List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita). A lot of China's "bashing on" is a direct result of our insatiable thirst for cheap "stuff."

In my completely uneducated position the per capita debate in this arena is useless. Canada accounts for less than 2% (I think thats the last number I saw) of carbon emissions. I just don't buy the per capita argument when the overall factor is simply that small. To me, its an excuse metric used to feel guilty.

As for the past, tough cookies. No offense meant. History cant be changed.

I'm not a climate warrior by any stretch; I live in a large house in the outer suburbs, and commute back and forth to it. However, I feel that the taxes I pay as a result of that (carbon tax and property tax being the big ones, even though I'm fully aware the metro area is helping pay for my lifestyle) is an appropriate charge for my chosen lifestyle.

Is it possible that the high taxation we are experiencing is a result of each social group demanding the free stuff they want, and then deriding the other free stuff they don't want, while the government tries to make everyone happy? In other words, it's on us, not them?

I also don't understand the fixation on "blaming the government" when the energy providers have been making record profits since COVID.

My wish (which won't happen) is that the majority of Canadians felt this way and choose to do their part, and in doing so we could develop the technologies to make us world leaders in the inevitable energy transition (and make a lot of money doing so), and we were led by a government that wanted to achieve that. My fear is we continue to allow us ourselves to be divided and end up where some right wing types seem to think we already are.

If I wasn't already being taxed at a ridiculous rate while also receiving shit services in return for those taxes, I might be receptive to a carbon tax. But that's not reality.

 

[Baz]

In my completely uneducated position the per capita debate in this arena is useless.

As for the past, tough cookies. No offense meant. History cant be changed.

In my opinion it’s the only one that does matter. It boils down to “my individual contribution doesn’t matter, so fuck everyone else, they can deal with it.”

It’s not the past for the rest of the world, it’s the present. Are they supposed to just say that we got us here, but since we refuse to deal with it they’ll wear it? If that’s the case, don’t be surprised when they come to take what you have.

 

[Aper]

From a PM who's been throwing our money away for years, bringing our deficit to it's highest in history; when he opens his mouth, we all know that it's garbage.

So yeah, carbon tax is just another scam that won't bring any concrete changes. It's like throwing 20$ bills on a broken '92 Civic telling yourself that it might start back one day without actually fixing the actual issues WHY it's not starting.

@Baz, you can do your own individual contribution like you say, to bring your mind at peace thinking you'll change the world. Drive an EV, walk to work, recycle, keep your heater during winter below 15 degrees, take showers and wash dishes at 0100H not to sollicitate too much precious power from peaked periods, eat green, wear bamboo clothes, ect ect. That fact is, like it or not, it won't change a damn thing in 40 years from now.

Not because people don't want to change, but because we are always blamed to be the problem by big corporations that don't want to change themselves. (Drive an EV, eat bugs while we travel the world in private jets and having 200 000$ meals during meetings).

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I don't normally use Wikipedia as a primary reference, but blanket statements such as yours shows you have very little interest in reviewing actual data, so:

Positive impacts​

Research shows that carbon taxes effectively reduce greenhouse gas emissions.[8][50][51] Most economists assert that carbon taxes are the most efficient and effective way to curb climate change, with the least adverse economic effects.[52][53][54][10][55][56]

One study found that Sweden's carbon tax successfully reduced carbon dioxide emissions from transport by 11%.[50] A 2015 British Columbia study found that the taxes reduced greenhouse gas emissions by 5–15% while having negligible overall economic effects.[51] A 2017 British Columbia study found that industries on the whole benefited from the tax and "small but statistically significant 0.74 percent annual increases in employment" but that carbon-intensive and trade-sensitive industries were adversely affected.[57] A 2020 study of carbon taxes in wealthy democracies showed that carbon taxes had not limited economic growth.[58]

Carbon taxes appear to not adversely affect employment or GDP growth in Europe.[59] Their economic impact ranges from zero to modest positive.[59]

Wikipedia - Carbon Tax- Impacts - Positive Impacts

I take those studies with a bag of salt. Carbon taxes hit at every level of production and distribution, leading to significant costs. Those costs have a major impact on families and small businesses. As one restaurant owner mentioned to me when he noted we stopped coming in as often to save money. "If all my customers save one meal a month, that is between 500-1,000 meals a month I will not be able to sell." That can be the difference of making a small profit or going broke. We cut back our eating out significantly as we can't cut back much on daily driving. I stopped buying certain brands of food as prices creep up. We just did our first major trip in a decade, as we had been saving for the kids education.
Excessive taxation has always been a drag on a economy.

 

[Halifax Tar]

In my opinion it’s the only one that does matter. It boils down to “my individual contribution doesn’t matter, so fuck everyone else, they can deal with it.”

It’s not the past for the rest of the world, it’s the present. Are they supposed to just say that we got us here, but since we refuse to deal with it they’ll wear it? If that’s the case, don’t be surprised when they come to take what you have.

Get China, India and the US onboard and I am in.

 

[YZT580]

Really, because he hasn't done one iota to change my mind.

Oh yeah, I forgot: I'm mentally inept, easily deceived, and a lemming.

Good thing there is the ignore button.

and along with all those attributes you have absolutely no sense of humour. Sorry about that

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Really, because he hasn't done one iota to change my mind.

Oh yeah, I forgot: I'm mentally inept, easily deceived, and a lemming.

Good thing there is the ignore button.

I don't think many, if any, change their minds on climate. No matter the discussion. People just won't do it.
Either you are a man made climate denier or a supporter. People are entrenched. They believe whatever science supports their position, and both have their science. I've been called all sorts of things here for my stances. Most recently a flat earther. I learned a long time ago, the more you try to defend your position, the more alienated you become, especially if you are in a minority stance. Nobody here has convinced me to become a supporter, simply because the data they use is different than mine. I also distrust the experts like Gore, Kerry, Thunberg, or anyone else that flys into Davos in private jets. People believe their professionals, I believe the scientists and experts on my side. I don't get into discussions about percents, graphs, papers and causes because you could type a tome about why or why not. It will be dismissed out of hand before it gets read because it doesn't fit someone's preferred narrative and it comes from the other side.