Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[brihard]

Israel is the greater good and must win this. These instances of crime need to and are being dealt with, hopefully harshly, to deter any future acts.

If anyone is really shocked there are isolated instances of atrocity by the "good guys" in a war, you fail to understand humans. The Israeli people are not cheering this on wholesale like Palestinians did on Oct 7th. Israel has been criticized from the beginning for it's "heavy handed response".

Horrific things happen in war - so avoid war at all costs. The handwringing can stop now.

How isolated this is doesn’t seem fully settled. There are other reports of prisoners there having needed amputations from abusive degrees of physical restraint. There’s enough smoke to warrant checking for a fire. That’s over and above the prisoner who was sodomized to the point of needing anal surgery.

While Israelis writ large have certainly not celebrated this event, a mob of people did force their way into and temporarily overrun at least part of an army base. They were cheered on, defended, and enabled by an extremist political party that forms prt of the country’s coalition government. This mob and these politicians support the soldiers under investigation for the sexual torture. So, it’s fair for those of us on the outside looking in to be concerned about what this means about the ethics and values of at least a significant enough chunk of Israeli society and a portion of their legislature and executive government. There’s no widespread celebration, but there certainly isn’t universal condemnation either, which there absolutely should be.

Trying to dismiss these concerns as mere ‘handwringing’ is beneath anyone in the profession of arms- at least in any country where the military purports to be professional.

 

[QV]

Some people are just not shocked anymore when outrageous things are done by professional militaries or institutions or horrible things that happen in civil society. That doesn't dismiss the act in any way. It dismisses the handwringing reaction to what is a likely outcome given the circumstances - ie: what did you expect? There always was a non-zero chance some splinter group will dish out an 'eye for an eye' response at some level during this shit show and the longer it went on the further from zero that chance became. Not surprising.

 

[brihard]

Some people are just not shocked anymore when outrageous things are done by professional militaries or institutions or horrible things that happen in civil society. That doesn't dismiss the act in any way. It dismisses the handwringing reaction to what is a likely outcome given the circumstances - ie: what did you expect? There always was a non-zero chance some splinter group will dish out an 'eye for an eye' response at some level during this shit show and the longer it went on the further from zero that chance became. Not surprising.

I expect a professional military not to allow the growth of an ethical environment in which a group of its soldiers decide it’s OK to sodomize a prisoner, and I expect mobs not to leap to the defense of those that do. That’s reasonable. This was a professional failing at levels far higher than just the section or platoon directly involved. Accountability flows up.

This isn’t a case of one or two bad apples who were alone and unsupervised. A whole group is under investigation, meaning enough others knew and it wasn’t stopped when it should have been (I.e., before a prisoner in secure custody was sodomized).

In the safe and secure confines of a base well away from the fighting, there is far less room to show understanding of gross criminal excesses.

 

[PrairieFella]

Let's not pretend that Israel is a shining city on the hill when it comes to human rights. These types of events have happened in the past and keep happening. Israel is vasstly superior on human rights to their neighbours but lacking by the standards of the West. Fuck Hamas and also fuck torture and the men who did this (and their superiors who probably knew about this). It's in our interest they win and survive but after this war there needs to be a reckoning on their actions which are going too far in a lot of ways.

I never did buy the "Greatest Allies of America" bit, your greatest allies don't bomb your ships.

 

[markppcli]

Some people are just not shocked anymore when outrageous things are done by professional militaries or institutions or horrible things that happen in civil society. That doesn't dismiss the act in any way. It dismisses the handwringing reaction to what is a likely outcome given the circumstances - ie: what did you expect? There always was a non-zero chance some splinter group will dish out an 'eye for an eye' response at some level during this shit show and the longer it went on the further from zero that chance became. Not surprising.

What do you mean “what did you expect” ? I don’t expect professionals to rape and torture people , nor do the Isrealis judging by their response. I sincerely hope you never find your self in a position of so authority in an operation.

Most of the people you’re accusing of “hand wringing” have been deployed to combat theatres, and put themselves in harms way. Some how none of us raped people.

 

[QV]

I mean that I expect during war there will be people who do horrific things that are not remotely legal. Ergo, not surprised. That state of mind in no way negatively impacts my personal morals and ethics, but has in fact made me more resilient to trauma.

Your sincere hope can be granted, I've already completed several operational tours in positions of authority with a successful record and I am now retired.

 

[KevinB]

I mean that I expect during war there will be people who do horrific things that are not remotely legal. Ergo, not surprised.

I can understand some excesses in the heat of the moment (not to condone them) - but this is after they have been taken into custody in a detention center. That is quite removed from a situation where surrendering soldiers are granted no quarter after a bloody messy fight.

That state of mind in no way negatively impacts my personal morals and ethics, but has in fact made me more resilient to trauma.

Your sincere hope can be granted, I've already completed several operational tours in positions of authority with a successful record and I am now retired.

Expectations set a bar for acceptance, and these sort of activities cannot be normalized or accepted.

Every time an egregious act is attempted to be explained away we lower ourselves as a whole.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Let's not pretend that Israel is a shining city on the hill when it comes to human rights. These types of events have happened in the past and keep happening. Israel is vasstly superior on human rights to their neighbours but lacking by the standards of the West. Fuck Hamas and also fuck torture and the men who did this (and their superiors who probably knew about this). It's in our interest they win and survive but after this war there needs to be a reckoning on their actions which are going too far in a lot of ways.

I never did buy the "Greatest Allies of America" bit, your greatest allies don't bomb your ships.

Around the same era Turkey bombed one of their own ships as well. Do you think we would be any better if Israel was made up of entirely Canadians living under the same circumstances, we would act the same or worse. The fact that Israel has had a very strong (until Oct 7th) peace movement willing to make significant sacrifices says a lot for the culture.

 

[QV]

These instances of crime need to and are being dealt with, hopefully harshly, to deter any future acts.

 

[OldSolduer]

I can understand some excesses in the heat of the moment (not to condone them) - but this is after they have been taken into custody in a detention center. That is quite removed from a situation where surrendering soldiers are granted no quarter after a bloody messy fight.

That is why MPs (who are supposed to be responsible for PW handling) take the PWs off the hands of whoever captured them to avoid atrocities.

Who was running the detention center?

 

[Remius]

That is why MPs (who are supposed to be responsible for PW handling) take the PWs off the hands of whoever captured them to avoid atrocities.

Who was running the detention center?

I read Force 100. Which are, i think, the MPs.

Not sure.

 

[Brad Sallows]

We shouldn't indulge in the bigotry of low or high expectations for societies and their governments. All should be held to one standard, just as all armed forces should be held to one standard. The standard we should prefer is the high one, which means we have to stop setting and tolerating low expectations, of anyone.

 

[QV]

Agreed Brad. However the world tolerates Hamas, a designated terror group, as the leadership of Palestine. We should expect (not accept) bad things to come of that.