Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[Kirkhill]

I remember a CBC interview, and I am pretty sure that it was about Yugoslavia, but it could have been Rwanda.

During the interview the subject was asked about numbers. The response was a stuttered "hundreds, uh, thousands". That became internationally reported as "hundreds of thousands".

 

[Quirky]

The press has the civilian toll all wrapped up in the same package and I tend to doubt the numbers

Which is why the civilian death toll is 100% false and unverified. Then again the media and our own government believed the “hospital air strike” which killed thousands as claimed by Hamas.

 

[brihard]

Which is why the civilian death toll is 100% false and unverified. Then again the media and our own government believed the “hospital air strike” which killed thousands as claimed by Hamas.

What’s your source data for saying it’s “100% false”? What usable data have you got on the civilian death toll that you can share?

I think we can all agree that fighting of this intensity in an urban environment that dense is going to come with probably a considerable number of civilian casualties. That’s not really credibly in dispute, I think. Questions of proportionality, military necessity, and distinction are a separate matter. But let’s be real- a lot of civilians are dying, in addition to combatants.

 

[Quirky]

But let’s be real- a lot of civilians are dying, in addition to combatants.

Civilians are dying, but the real numbers are unknown, even hamas doesn’t know. They lie about everything.

 

[brihard]

Civilians are dying, but the real numbers are unknown, even hamas doesn’t know. They lie about everything.

That’s different from you confidently claiming the numbers are ‘100% false’.

17,000 total fatalities is definitely plausible to me; obviously I can’t know one way or another. Equally obviously, plenty of combatants will be among them. But so will a lot of noncombatants. In considering how this was is being fought, even if we don’t have exact numbers, I would be surprised if accurate numbers aren’t in this general ballpark.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Who cares ? You don't stop fighting because the other side is taking casualties, civilian or combatant. If Hamas cared about its population all it has to do is come forward and surrender; and turn themselves in. I don't shed tears for people who were cheering in glee on Oct 7th and are now crying crocodile tears.

There are lots of bordering Arab/Muslim countries that could be taking in these refugees... I wonder why they aren't...

 

[brihard]

Who cares ? You don't stop fighting because the other side is taking casualties, civilian or combatant. If Hamas cared about its population all it has to do is come forward and surrender; and turn themselves in. I don't shed tears for people who were cheering in glee on Oct 7th and are now crying crocodile tears.

There are lots of bordering Arab/Muslim countries that could be taking in these refugees... I wonder why they aren't...

I do. A lot of people do. “Who cares?” should never be the response to civilian casualties, even if they’re justified and unavoidable.

 

[Quirky]

I don't shed tears for people who were cheering in glee on Oct 7th

Don’t forget 9/11 too.

 

[brihard]

Don’t forget 9/11 too.

The majority of the population of Gaza weren’t born yet when that happened.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I do. A lot of people do. “Who cares?” should never be the response to civilian casualties, even if they’re justified and unavoidable.

Good for you.

 

[Quirky]

The majority of the population of Gaza weren’t born yet when that happened.

Doesn’t matter how you try to defend them, people living in gaza aren’t the innocent peace loving poor people lefties and the UN claim they are. There is a reason why no one in the Arab world wants anything to do with them. If this was 1000 years ago and Israel had gaza as a neighbour, they would’ve wiped them all out by now. Israel is showing massive restraint in this war.

The question moving forward is, what do you do with 2 million people who are brainwashed into wanting the destruction of Israel and murder of Jews?

 

[brihard]

The question moving forward is, what do you do with 2 million people who are brainwashed into wanting the destruction of Israel and murder of Jews?

Well, last time about 80 years ago we had to defeat them militarily and occupy their country for a while. But part of that was also rebuilding said country (that we had done quite a number on- with good reason), prosecuting those guilty of war crimes, and reintegrating them into the developed world.

Not to say that Gaza is an analogous challenge to post-war Germany. Some aspects of it are much harder.

But when an entire population is essentially ghettoized and forgotten about at best or treated as totally worthless and disposable at worst, absolutely there is going to be an enduring challenge of angry young men growing up with little to live for. Then, they’re easily convinced they could have something to die for.

By invading and occupying, Israel has essentially taken on the responsibility to look after these couple million people, even as they weed out the evil and malevolent among them. I hope they have a plan. Gaza was already a hellhole, but now it’s so very much worse. And whether you like it or not, there absolutely are a lot of innocent civilians stuck in the middle of this. As you yourself point out, nobody will take them, so the few million can’t really help but be caught between the rock and hard place that is the IDF and some 30,000-odd Hamas fighters.

 

[Remius]

The question moving forward is, what do you do with 2 million people who are brainwashed into wanting the destruction of Israel and murder of Jews?

1. Destroy Hamas
2. Create a provisional government (Arab nations led)
3. Have an Arab force (police force from Arab nations rather than military force)
4. Create a massive reeducation program
5. Create the conditions for economic prosperity
6. Transition to autonomous rule

This will take a generation if not more to achieve.

 

[YZT580]

1. Destroy Hamas
2. Create a provisional government (Arab nations led)
3. Have an Arab force (police force from Arab nations rather than military force)
4. Create a massive reeducation program
5. Create the conditions for economic prosperity
6. Transition to autonomous rule

This will take a generation if not more to achieve.

and it should have happened at least two wars ago. Every time that Hamas has attacked and Israel has responded Israel has been forced to stop allowing Hamas to regroup and start all over again. From what I can see it is far worse now than it would have been 20 years ago.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Apparently Israeli has agreed not to occupy Gaza, so who knows what comes next. Plus the fight in the North as hard as it is, will be tougher in the South due to the population there. One option is they start pushing vetted people North and have Aid agencies setup camps for them.

 

[Quirky]

One option is they start pushing vetted people North and have Aid agencies setup camps for them.

Egypt would be the better option, not a destroyed gaza city.

 

[Furniture]

Egypt would be the better option, not a destroyed gaza city.

Egypt won't let them in for much the same reason Israel won't, they have created a culture of rebellion. The last thing Egypt wants is Palestinians stirring up rebellion with the Muslim Brotherhood.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Egypt won't let them in for much the same reason Israel won't, they have created a culture of rebellion. The last thing Egypt wants is Palestinians stirring up rebellion with the Muslim Brotherhood.

The very best we can hope for is Egypt to agree to administer Gaza, without letting them be part of Egypt. They would ask a pretty penny for it, but it might be worth it.

 

[Rifleman62]

What to do with the captured Hamas? Clear the rubble in Gaza under supervision? A form of hard labour.

 

[QV]

No government will improve the Gaza situation. I say put Elon Musk in charge of fixing Gaza.