Hard-pressed army forced to train with paintball guns

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I would put Roche's fine post into the "supporting facts" category... and I'll leave it at that. 

Roche:  very valuable input to this discussion - thanks.

TR

 

[Haggis]

It would be nice if a planner or participant in this exercise could weigh in with some facts

Looks like I got my wish!

Thanks, Roche.

...without competent Umpires / Battle Controllers, even Sim degenerates into a shoot em up.....The value of bang leads to ouch falls off when a unit transitions from battle exercises to "playing guns"...

Well said.  Both MILES and Simuntion are useful training aids, but they should not be used to prop up an otherwise shaky and poorly controlled exercise plan.

Unless the leadership learns it's lessons in a formal atmosphere, such as the AAR process with trained O/Cs and umpires, the troops will quickly tire of being killed by leaders making the same mistakes ad nauseum.

 

[mo-litia]

Simunition is a great training tool, once the kits are in service for the support weapons, training will change, and a bunch of this macho lamo crap about training will be replaced with scars, blood, and lessons learned.   Once a C6 and C9 start spitting pain, a lot of tactics will change, no more just running up to a machine gunner and firing your couple of rounds, being declared the victor, and then taking over the captured machine gun.

It'll be a good day for training when this stuff is finally ready to be used on a regular basis by all troops; reg and reserve.

 

[sjm]

Used to run a paintball field in the Ottawa area with a few high school buddies from '82 to '90.  On several occasions we had formed platoons come down from Pet for "fun".  Always in civvies and always on weekends, why? Because it was fun, not work.  No one considered it realistic training, even in the dark ages.

The days usually started with one game of capture the flag.  Them (15 to 30 most times, high of 40 one time) vs us (there were 4, sometimes 5 of us operators).  We always won the first game.  While they tried to actually capture the flag we would eliminate them and eventually walk off with their flag.  The groups always came down for fun while we were using their own manuals against them.  Fire and movement was the secret to that GAME.  No paint ball gun will hit a man sprinting through the woods.  We worked in two man teams. We were either stopped briefly to take an aimed shot or moving like madmen.  Find an enemy, one guy shoot the other flank.  Of course home field advantage was a given.

It did teach a few things that the senior members would point out during the day to the troops.  Three of the big lessons learned are here, not necessarily the top three but my memory isn't quite what it used to be.


a. Teamwork, no individuals stood a chance in the firefight against even a slightly organized opponent.
              -Both guys can't be reloading or clearing a stoppage at the same time
              -one guy shoots or watches, the other moves(as quickly as possible)

b. The junior leaders, sometimes down to the fireteam commanders would have to make instant decisions.  The worst decision is no decision and by the end of the day there were very few bodies playing the static game.

c. Good communications will usually guarantee success regardless of how well an attack is planned.  We had the old MK 1 voice box.  Needs no batteries, works in the rain...  The level of noise didn't come close to firearms but one of the biggest challenges was getting the troops to give decent firecontrol orders. By the end of the day it was hard to think over all the yelling.

Paint ball has its place, I'd put it in the teambuilding category and not necessarily in the training category but there are areas where the two can't be divided.

I'm sure old "KevinB" remembers the paint ball jungle lanes with pop up targets the Regt use to run during the family fun days for the troops



kids.


It was fun sure but not a complete waste of time.

 

[KevinB]

Stef - yes - for teamwork and fun - sure I but dont included it in training - especially for CQB. 

The problem paintball teaches is you can outrun it -- sadly bullets have a tendance of catching up to you. -- Sims on the other hand  ;D they catch the runner too.

As I think many of us have pointed out a trained Observer Controller team is key - since even sims and miles have faults (hiding on the otherside of a door...)

To be an ass (and instill trg value) I kicked open a door in our Sim house - knowing one of the troops would try to close it - and when he tried I shot him in the underarm 6 times while he had exposed (thru the crack in the doorjamb) his arm to close the door. 

Realistically we need live killhouses as well - for you can see in your troops that a lot of skills and common sense goes out the window as soon as the live round gets chambered.  I had one of my troops decide to "meander" across a room - so much for kick door turn right - and he literally walked in front of my muzzle while I was engaging two tgts in my zone (lucky for him I did not have tunnel vision).

We need training - and we need it regularily - but more importantly we need it properly structured and controlled while executing it.

The problem we face is HOW to make a realsitic and useful trainign environment and still make it safe

Naturally we cant use breaching shotguns while using a live opfor - and due to the construct of most of our SIM rnages we can't properly execute breaches - nor can we use DD's or other explosive sims due to the firehazards - so the poor shmoe wearing the MOE kit has to lug around a bunch of stuff wear cant use in our trainign environment - well other than C Coy 1VP who demo'd a buildign two weeks ago on base - same goes with the demise of Pioneers we have VERY few Infanteers qualified to conduct a hasty explosive breach

Even Delta wears helmets 

Ammo point - at nearly $1 a rd sims HAVE to be properly employed - anything else is just stupid.

and yes they sometimes hurt.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Ottawa â ” Canadian soldiers testing their fighting skills in a rare urban exercise were forced to rent commercial paintball weapons because they couldn't get proper army gear, a newly disclosed document shows.

So instead of us using blanks and running around arguing Your dead NOOOO your dead, we used paintballs to show soldiers if they don't keep their heads down their going to get shot and somehow this is a stupid idea?

Troops who only train with blanks develop some stupid stupid habbits which is always apparent the first time they use paintballs or simunition.

 

[KevinB]

Ghost - blanks by themselves are useless too.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Ghost - blanks by themselves are useless too.

Thats what I ment.  Using blanks teach a soldier only the most basic of drills. I don't know how many times i've just seen troops firing off their weapon without even aming. 'It's only blanks who cares.'

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Though I am far from an expert on Infantry training, I never forgot [to this day even] my first encounter with a blank. Doing the march out to Granville in 78, we got "attacked". Well, little Brucie ran off to a knoll on the side of the trail, jumped over it and was then "shot" by a blank from mere feet away. I had ran right into the firing lane and never forgot that my first "encounter" with the enemy made me a moronic causality in mere seconds cause I wanted to play "ninjasnipercommando".
Like I said, I never forgot this simple life lesson and I have the blank to thank for it, so I would say they are not totally useless, just need to be "played" right and to the right level of soldier.

 

[Jacqueline]

The Israelis are training paint ball guns.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061113/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_guerilla_training

 

[Synthos]

This thread is an interesting read, but the end game is pretty clear:

Paint ball guns are -very- inaccurate. The balls drop like 1 foot in the first 10 meters if you have a poo gun (which most rentals are).
Paint balls are much slower than bullets obviously.
The above two points combined make for fast paced running action, but inaccurate depictions of real combat.

Paint ball guns can do some things for you:
Train instinctive shooting, possibly even target identification as well.
CQC. Yes they would work sufficiently for these areas....  if you only loaded 30 rounds into the hopper at a time.
Any weapons training that doesn't involved weapon IAs, reloading, or accuracy of any kind. (leaves very little doesn't it?)

Notice that for all the things that paint ball guns *can* do for you can BE DONE WITH BLANKS! Because paint ball guns are so inaccurate it doesn't matter if you use paint ball guns or blanks, both don't hit your intended target!

Yes paint ball guns are fun because you can shoot buddy and run around and such, and you don't have to clean them before or afterwords, but they do nothing that can't be done with blanks

 

[Dissident]

Joint Thunder '06, South Dakota. Training with the SD NG.

JT is a huge exercise for the SD NG, its their main concentration for the year, NG units come from as far as Colorado and elsewhere to "play".

During the 2 weeks of the ex, there are many different "lanes" they go through. One of which is MOUT/FIBUA with paintball. Sure, it gets the adrenaline going and you can identify some shortcomings, like GRIT, how to keep control of the section and what happens when a plan unravels.

But there is a serious limitation when you can use the "cover" of a small bush a mere 40m away from one of the bad guys unloading on you.

Top notch instructors, we learned a lot. Paintballs remains a toy nonetheless.

 

[Wookilar]

I've been playing paintball since '88. Joined the CF in '93.

The two have little in common. There are magazine feed paintball slingers out there that are made to "simulate" military drills. But they suck.

Trying to follow/teach proper doctrine/training procedures is almost impossible with the wrong training aids. This was someones bright idea and they were looking for an "ataboy" when they should have been given a slap to the back of the head.

Oh, and the original story may have published in the Globe, but it's from the CP. And we all know that the CP is a very factual news organization and would never dream of putting a negative slant on anything the military does... ...whatever.

Wook

 

[MP101]

This thread is an interesting read, but the end game is pretty clear:

Paint ball guns are -very- inaccurate. The balls drop like 1 foot in the first 10 meters if you have a poo gun (which most rentals are).
Paint balls are much slower than bullets obviously.
The above two points combined make for fast paced running action, but inaccurate depictions of real combat.

Paint ball guns can do some things for you:
Train instinctive shooting, possibly even target identification as well.
CQC. Yes they would work sufficiently for these areas....  if you only loaded 30 rounds into the hopper at a time.
Any weapons training that doesn't involved weapon IAs, reloading, or accuracy of any kind. (leaves very little doesn't it?)

Notice that for all the things that paint ball guns *can* do for you can BE DONE WITH BLANKS! Because paint ball guns are so inaccurate it doesn't matter if you use paint ball guns or blanks, both don't hit your intended target!

Yes paint ball guns are fun because you can shoot buddy and run around and such, and you don't have to clean them before or afterwords, but they do nothing that can't be done with blanks

Although many paintball guns are inaccurate and hard to load, they have SIM-ulation guns that actually look like MP5's and other guns that load like a real gun (With a 30 round mag) and can shoot like a gun (accurate and reliable). Some are inaccurate ($20-50 ones) and some are deadly accurate ($30-1000) which shoot in excess of 400 FPS.

I find it to be prety good to train with these guns in close quarters because they are similar in accuracy (most of the time)

 

[Wookilar]

MP101,

In short, NO!! I checked your profile, so I will go a little easy on you and be polite.

There is only one model of paintball marker that uses a magazine feed system. It sucks. I have used it. The milsim ones you are speaking about are all cosmetic. Just because it looks like a magazine, doesn't mean it is. At best, they are an expansion chamber to improve CO2 efficiency.

Accuracy: if you think a paintball is as accurate as a bullet, you are mistaken. They are not and the reasons are way too lengthy to post here. PM me if you want some more info.

And just a point: Let me know where you play, because if you've got markers running over 300 fps (the international safety limit, just to let you know) then my friends and I will stay away.

 

[patrick666]

Although many paintball guns are inaccurate and hard to load, they have SIM-ulation guns that actually look like MP5's and other guns that load like a real gun (With a 30 round mag) and can shoot like a gun (accurate and reliable). Some are inaccurate ($20-50 ones) and some are deadly accurate ($30-1000) which shoot in excess of 400 FPS.

Those are Airsoft guns, I believe. They fire pellets rather than paintballs. I've seen replicas pistols, shotguns, sniper rifles, m16s, mp5s and all sorts of things. It's scarey how realistic they are. Some people who play Airsoft are just right into it with full combat gear and mics. To each his own, I suppose!

 

[Jarnhamar]

MP101,

In short, NO!! I checked your profile, so I will go a little easy on you and be polite.

So what's the deciding factor in someones profile that dictates whether your polite with them or not?

 

[Thorvald]

Those are Airsoft guns, I believe. They fire pellets rather than paintballs. I've seen replicas pistols, shotguns, sniper rifles, m16s, mp5s and all sorts of things. It's scarey how realistic they are. Some people who play Airsoft are just right into it with full combat gear and mics. To each his own, I suppose!

He may be referring to the "Professional Training Weapon" (read: bloody expensive airsoft gun) that they are trying to get the Law Enforcement community to adopt down in the states.  Promo/intro videos are posted on youtube for your entertainment during lunch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKcqJIgrz0o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dq9KO2T7XM

There is only one model of paintball marker that uses a magazine feed system. It sucks. I have used it.

I assume you are referring to the "Real Action Marker", RAP4/5.  That one even ejects "shells".

http://rap4.com/video/MV.WMV
http://www.rap4.com/paintball/

Cheers

 

[brihard]

MP101,

In short, NO!! I checked your profile, so I will go a little easy on you and be polite.

There is only one model of paintball marker that uses a magazine feed system. It sucks. I have used it. The milsim ones you are speaking about are all cosmetic. Just because it looks like a magazine, doesn't mean it is. At best, they are an expansion chamber to improve CO2 efficiency.

Accuracy: if you think a paintball is as accurate as a bullet, you are mistaken. They are not and the reasons are way too lengthy to post here. PM me if you want some more info.

And just a point: Let me know where you play, because if you've got markers running over 300 fps (the international safety limit, just to let you know) then my friends and I will stay away.

Begging your pardon, but you're out to lunch- there are a lot of relatively newly developed markers that operate using magazine fed systems, with more coming out regularly. Some of them are impressively realistic looking, and some of them work damned well. Gradually those two qualities are coming together. I'd suggest you look up the ATS markers for examples of a quality mag-fed system. The (c)Rap-4 guns are mostly junk, but even they're starting to get their act together with the gen 5 stuff.

Paintball's use as a training tool is still dubious, but please endeavour to furnish the guys interested in discussing it with complete information. Just because you've not seen them out at Ground Zero doesn't mean they aren't on the market. companies recognize that there is a very active military and law enforcement market if they can get a good .68 calibre mag-fed system on the market, and many companies are working to accommodate that.

EDIT TO ADD: You're nonetheless correct in that MP101 did not present the information accurately either. The markers he was mentioning are definitely dubious.

 

[Wookilar]

I agree that the RAP's are mostly garbage (but getting better, quality wise) but the ATS is hardly new. I think that the RAP system has more promise (mechanically speaking). ATS has been working on their system for almost a decade now. It still sucks and while they certainly look and feel proper now (the balance has certainly improved over the years) you can not do the proper drills on them. Also, the issues with the conveyor belt system (jamming, coming off the rollers, etc) are huge especially given the current trend toward more brittle, higher-end paint and the quality of the plastic used to make the magazines, especially the 200 rnd ones that are supposed to simulate light machine guns.

It is the drills that are important, not the equipment. We can argue all day long about whether X-gun is better than Y-gun and give our reasons why. In the end it doesn't really matter. It is not possible, at this time, to realistically simulate C-7/C-9/C-6 drills using paintball guns. I mean equipment drills and tactical procedures.

Simunition uses the same drills (yes, I know the upper receiver is modified) as the C-7, that is what is required. Using even the highest quality mil-sim paintslingers out there (which cost as much or more than a complete C-7), you are not going to teach anything that will keep them alive. Except maybe don't stand in front of the door.

I am no infanteer, but I am an avid shooter (shootist?). I am quite familiar and comfortable using my weapons in all sorts of training scenarios (live fire, ambush drills, Miles old and new, simunitions and even the militia bullets of the mid-90's  ;D) and my own personal activities. But, I have far more time with a paintball gun in my hand than I have doing up-he-sees-me-down across the frozen tundra of Wainright (my knees and elbows are aching just thinking about that) or doing close quarters drills.

IMHO Paintball = dubious training value.

But can be a lot of fun.

And don't even get me started on what I think of Airsoft. To each their own.

note: Ground Zero,.....only played there once so far, not overly impressed. But thanks for looking at my profile.

Ohh, and the polite thing: MP101 has filled out a truthful profile and I saw no reason to hammer him because he does not appear to know the difference between shooting a gelatin capsule and shooting a bullet. Hence the offer of more info if he is interested. Many current 17 year old's can build you a kick-@ss gaming computer, but have never fired a rifle. Didn't mean to be condescending (but ninerD says I can be).