Harper wants a pretty white plane ...
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GAP said:
Bureacratic bloat. Do you think when the PM travels that he can be without his staff, PR, support staff, security, press etc. Challengers don't have that much space, of course they could use Air Canada for transport, if they want a honking big Airbus let them lease it for the mission
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Why are you people getting so upset, and carried away about a friggin' paintjob? Who cares? If it even provides the most minutae of protection, to whoever is flying in it, it's worth it.
I want no part of a country, or political party, that fights an upcoming election based on the colour of our planes, and anyone that votes on that criteria is a fuckin' moron and doesn't deserve to be given the pencil to mark the circle.
I want no part of a country, or political party, that fights an upcoming election based on the colour of our planes, and anyone that votes on that criteria is a fuckin' moron and doesn't deserve to be given the pencil to mark the circle.
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What cost? Pay for grey paint, pay for white paint, still paying for paint.
Forgive my ignorance, but are these aircraft really flown into a threat environment? Does it really matter if we paint brightly or subdued? They are already painted with glossy paint vs the matte paint of other air craft.
Though if anything, you'd think the PMO would accept a grey plane coloured the same as the rest for the simple matter of security in anonymity.
Forgive my ignorance, but are these aircraft really flown into a threat environment? Does it really matter if we paint brightly or subdued? They are already painted with glossy paint vs the matte paint of other air craft.
Though if anything, you'd think the PMO would accept a grey plane coloured the same as the rest for the simple matter of security in anonymity.
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SherH2A: All those wonderful Canadian journalists must be accommodated too
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Mark
Ottawa
.Mark
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RangerBoy said:
One CF role is to provide tn to the PM (and others). Government gives us money to accomplish those missions.
And, frankly, if the best advice has been given ("Grey is better because") and the direction comes down to proceed regardless, CAS has two choices: paint the goddamned plane already, or quit. Finding the money to paint the aircraft is trivial in a department with roughly $20B per year - lots of fat that could be trimmed (Juno the Army bear and Sonar the Navy dog both come to mind immediately). Whining and bitching that the military must follow legal orders from above is just plain stupid.
Pusser
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RangerBoy said:
That makes even less sense. The Airbus in question is already fitted out as a VIP aircraft (even has a shower). If anything, buy an new Airbus to put into general service to replace the newly painted one.
On another note, I always though the lightning bolt was pretty cool. If they do end up painting the plane in another colour (and I'm not saying they should) I at least hope the paint scheme chosen reflects that it's still a military aircraft (i.e. lightning bolt and CF roundels) and not some political platform.
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MarkOttawa said:SherH2A: All those wonderful Canadian journalists must be accommodated too
Mark
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Why? Are they a part of the government or the Civil Service who need to be there to do a job for Canada?
No, they are part of a commercial enterprise who make money from being there. I would suggest they should fly commercial.
If the PMO insists on them being flown by the CF, then let them ride on our normal military aircraft and be subject to the same risks as the CF members.
Oldgateboatdriver
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MJP said:
I don't know if you can trust Wikepedia on this one: The entry for Canada says that we operate five Airbus', four of which are Bombardier's Challengers 600 ???
Personally, and regardless of the debate on the usefulness of the colour scheme, I like the current grey plane's camo because it stands out from the others (all nice and white) on the tarmac when they park together and it says: look, I'm flying with my airforce, not some pamby-mamby civvy airline in disguise.
Oh. and dataperson: The PM (and the PMO even less) is not in the chain of command. He can't give the CDS "lawful orders". We work for HM the Queen, which means we get our orders from the GG in counsel. PM may "counsel" her, but she gives the order. It may seem like a distinction without difference, but it legally holds a lot because its the nuance that makes any direction the CDS gets from the PM or MoD non binding unless they specifically go through the GG with a written order to the CDS and which gives him/her the discretion to apply it as he/she interprets without risk of court martial every time there is a disagreement on intent/application of the directive received (such as the recent problems over application of the TB financial directives).
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Oldgateboatdriver said:
We own 5 Airbuses and 6 CC-144 Challengers (Bombardier Challenger 600)
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Don't know about PCO, but if it was PMO, if the PM didn't like the idea, I'm guessing we wouldn't have to wait too, too wait long for him to say, "belay his last".Strike said:
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The primary source of the story is apparently an Access to Information request. How did the reporter know exactly what to ask for? Good point you raise.....RangerBoy said:
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Oldgateboatdriver said:
First, it's the "Governor General in Council"; if you're going to be condescending and pedantic, at least try to be correct.
Second, PMO/PCO in this case will direct TB, acting as GGinC, to issue the direction to the CF. While waiting for the written direction is following proper form, once intent is received it is best to begin planning and preparation. (Sort of like a warning order).
Finally, the recent "problems over application of the TB financial directives" have everything to do with no TB directives in existence, and nothing to do with disagreement over intent/application.
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:nod: MilPoints enroutedapaterson said:
Oldgateboatdriver
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dapaterson said:
And I would return the favour here: The TB hasn't and does not in any case at all act as GGinC - only the GG can act as GGinC unless Parliament enacts a delegation of power to someone else. The constitution does not provide for it and the Parliament has never adopted a law delegating GGinC powers to the TB. If you go through Chap. 1 of QR&O's (from 1.14 onto 1.25), for instance, you will see Regulations originating from the GGinC, TB and M.N.D. as three different sources of delegated powers. QR&O's are, for instance mostly regulations from the GGinC.
But i'm glad you ultimately changed your vocab in this matter: Your first post dealt with someone in the CF refusing to obey a lawful order (your own words). You are now talking about directives, as am I. Yes the PMO/PCO/TB can give DND (again, not the CF, which gets such directives through DND) directives. And that is my point: if you screw it up as a higher ranked officer or do not agree with the directives, you can be removed or you can quit, but you can't be courtmartialed (the consequence of refusing a "lawful order").
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