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Harriers for Navy/Air Force

aesop081 said:
Care to explain that one ?

Only experience operational taskings involving the re-equipped 140 can explain that one. I can see where he is coming from based on the way he is presenting the research, but I think you already hit the nail on the head- a fighter is a fighter. Full stop. What is being proposed, I think, is to use a fighter for another purpose, a sub-optimum purpose considering the platform.[although a stealthy EW platform is desirable, IWI.] Carrier based paltforms notwithstanding, airborne EW ops supporting TG's and TF's typically require extended endurance, a fairly comfortable chair and a coffee pot, something a fighter has little of compared to larger aircraft operating from an airstrip. I would think Plan B would likely involve satellites and UAV's, not fighters?

Fighter based EW supporting a strike or recon sortie might be [is] a completely different story.
 

 
I have to agree with FoverF on the whole ESM/ELINT debate here are I think aesop is being a bit too pedantic in his criticism of the whole "JSF as ESM platform" concept. I'm not saying you're wrong, aesop, I just think we shouldn't let semantics or differing interpretations of terminology get in the way of a good debate on the use of AESA-equipped platforms for non-traditional uses.

The AESA radar on the JSF (and on the F/A-22, F-15, F/A-18E/F) are capable of performing SIGINT/ELINT roles, ECM functions like jamming, and communications. With all this capability, why not use the JSF (if we ever get it) for such things as SIGINT or as an EW platform? Just my two pennies...

MG
 
Chaff for distraction.....JSF as an ESM platform..get your head out of your Clancy book

No real experience here in EW applications,just a bunch of BS........

nice keep up the good work post by Slim.......


I am out
 
HFXCrow said:
nice keep up the good work post by Slim.......

I help where I can...Since I don't know jack about the suject at hand.

I do think some of us may have been a tad rough on the young lad as he's obviously done some homework and research.
 
Care to explain that one?

Well, a CP-140 is nice to have, when it's around. Basing is basically what I'm getting at. The Task Group is not always going to be within reasonable range of shore bases, or shore bases might not be available for military ops at all. Something like a Falklands/Malvinas dispute, or like I said, a conflict in the South China Sea are examples. Something on-deck and always available would be a lot more useful in these kinds of situations.

WRT to using AESA as ECM systems; I don't think AESAs are going to be useful as active jammers any time soon. As of yet none of the in-service radars can do this, and IIRC that function was supposed to be developed for the F-22 and ported to the F-35. This has since been cancelled from the F-22, and I don't know if it's going to happen for the F-35 in the forseeable future. Given that the USN has just dumped a whole lot of money into the Growler program, I don't think they expect it either.

I agree with whiskey601 that a lack of endurance is a very serious factor here. As for UAVs and satellites being the preffered plan B, that all depends on what kind of capabilities your UAVs have and what kind of satellite coverage you have. As far as UAVs go, we're talking rotary-wing, or very small fixed-wing ones here, not exactly Global Hawks (although there may be some circumstances where this IS the case, provided we buy them). They will be a step up in terms of endurance from a vertol F-35, but nowhere near in terms of sensors, or altitude. And we have to look at how many would be embarked (obviously this depends on the type, and is something I'm still looking into). As I said before, you still need UAVs, but IMHO any time you're expecting trouble, or actively looking for contact, an F-35 would be probably be a better bet.

As far as satellites go, I have to admit quite a bit of ignorance here. I can talk your ear off for hours about orbital mechanics, and all the physics-type stuff involved, but I really don't know much about the capabilities of electronic surveilance satellites. I'm going to make a few educated guesses though
1) Canada doesn't have any
2) Canada isn't going to get any soon
3) Geosnyc orbit is a LONG way away, so the good ones are probably lower orbit, and so of limited availability (a few passes per day) anyways
4) We're going to be dependant on someone else deciding that they agree with what Canada is doing, that they don't need the bird at the moment, that they don't mind burning a lot of fuel to get it to where we need it, and that people on our ships can get info from it in close to real time.

Please feel free to correct me on any of these points (I know people around here seem awful shy about correcting me), but it seems to me we shouldn't be relying on them too heavily. I think in a combat situation against another navy, 'plan B' should really involve any and all assets we can get our grubby little hands on, not just dinky ship-board UAVs and someone else's satellites. That would include F-35s (if they were on-board).

I'm certainly not trying to promote the F-35B as the be-all and end-all of Canadian EW. I certainly agree that it is a 'sub-optimum' use of the a/c. But it's also hardly the main selling point for the a/c. It was just one of a list of capabilities I was looking at, and it got jumped on, so we've been expounding on it. I certainly don't think you can justify carrying the aircraft (and displacing a helicopter) solely for it's EW suite (I'm still kind of up in the air as to whether it can be justified at all without a carrier). It's just one potential application for which it could come in handy.

Anyways, have a rotational dynamics class to get to, gotta jet
 
FoverF said:
As far as satellites go, I have to admit quite a bit of ignorance here. I can talk your ear off for hours about orbital mechanics, and all the physics-type stuff involved, but I really don't know much about the capabilities of electronic surveilance satellites. I'm going to make a few educated guesses though
1) Canada doesn't have any
2) Canada isn't going to get any soon
3) Geosnyc orbit is a LONG way away, so the good ones are probably lower orbit, and so of limited availability (a few passes per day) anyways
4) We're going to be dependant on someone else deciding that they agree with what Canada is doing, that they don't need the bird at the moment, that they don't mind burning a lot of fuel to get it to where we need it, and that people on our ships can get info from it in close to real time.

LOL- Given the recent liberal pledge to eliminate space based weapons, discussion of the existing intergalactic fleet of Canadian armed recce satellites is verbooten.

Canada industry has a few satellites, the Canadian military has 1 or more sitting in a warehouse somewhere.

Access to and use of satellite Intel is generally OPSEC.  I shouldn't have brought it up.

Cheers.
 
You want to displace a helicopter and put a F-35/22 on the deck instead?  I don't think so...  Vertol fighter does not mean it can take off on the back of a frigate.  You would need a small carrier or flat top vessel, minimum.

The CP-140 has the legs to go out 700nm from shore and loiter for upwards of 8 hours. 
 
Zoomie said:
You want to displace a helicopter and put a F-35/22 on the deck instead?  I don't think so...  Vertol fighter does not mean it can take off on the back of a frigate.  You would need a small carrier or flat top vessel, minimum.

The CP-140 has the legs to go out 700nm from shore and loiter for upwards of 8 hours. 

we routinely go longer....much longer
 
Chaff for distraction.....JSF as an ESM platform..get your head out of your Clancy book

No real experience here in EW applications,just a bunch of BS........

Thank god a Sea Cadet has sorted us out and set us straight on the whole JSF/ESM issue! Now that we have been sufficiently schooled in the ways of ESM and the potential roles of the JSF by HFXCrow, I guess there isn't any need for anyone to read this article:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2005/10/supersonic-sigint-will-f35-f22-also-play-ew-role/index.php which explains how the F-35 and the F/A-22 can be used for ELINT and that this capability is being seriously pursued.

Or this article from the C4ISR Journal: http://www.isrjournal.com/story.php?F=1052264 that goes into more detail about how the JSF's AESA radar will enable it (and any other AESA-equipped aircraft) to perform ELINT, jamming and broadband comms functions with its radar.

Thanks for that man, this was almost a sensible debate about real capabilities but you brought our collective heads out of our Clancy novels!

MG
 
Mortar guy said:
Thank god a Sea Cadet has sorted us out and set us straight on the whole JSF/ESM issue! Now that we have been sufficiently schooled in the ways of ESM and the potential roles of the JSF by HFXCrow, I guess there isn't any need for anyone to read this article:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2005/10/supersonic-sigint-will-f35-f22-also-play-ew-role/index.php which explains how the F-35 and the F/A-22 can be used for ELINT and that this capability is being seriously pursued.

Or this article from the C4ISR Journal: http://www.isrjournal.com/story.php?F=1052264 that goes into more detail about how the JSF's AESA radar will enable it (and any other AESA-equipped aircraft) to perform ELINT, jamming and broadband comms functions with its radar.

Thanks for that man, this was almost a sensible debate about real capabilities but you brought our collective heads out of our Clancy novels!

MG

MG,

Your sarcasm, as funny as it was , is rather missplaced.  I am not arguing that the F-22/F-35 with their AESA radars have a role to play in the EW spectrum.  What i was debating was FoverF's statement that they were designed as ESM platforms from the onset. This is a falacy brought about by a lack of understanding of what ESM is, how it is employed and no experience in the field.  HFXCrow and I work with ESM systems as part of our MOCs.  ESM is not ELINT, it is not EPM either.  These roles are what is being explored for AESA radars.
 
aesop,

My comments (especially the sacrastic ones) weren't directed at you. I don't think FoverF ever said that the JSF was ever designed from the outset as an ESM platform and, in fact, all he was saying was that the capabilities offered by the AESA radar and various other ESM features on the JSF could make it a decent ELINT platform. Granted he may have used the wrong terminology but, as you will note in the articles I posted, he was right on the money. The US and other JSF partners are seriously contemplating exploiting the capabilities inherent in the JSF to allow it to expand the roles it is capable of performing.

I haven't seen anyone seriously refute the statements made by FoverF about the potential uses of the JSF for EW roles as you seem fixated on his use of terminology rather than the technological merits of the proposal. I suggest we stop debating the JSF/EW semantics issue as the articles I posted have proven beyond a doubt that the JSF will have substantial ESM/ECM/ELINT capabilities and that, at a minimum, the USMC is seriously pursuing the idea of the JSF as an EW platform.

While I respect that you work in this field, you haven't exactly won me over with your knowledge of the subject. You said that you doubted the AESA radar on the JSF could be used for broadband comms, ESM or jamming when in fact it is being designed to do all of those things and more. Perhaps being an aesop on an Aurora doesn't necessarily automatically qualify you as the forum expert on AESA radars or the JSF? No offense intended and all I am saying is we shouldn't be shutting people down too quickly on this topic unless our statements are backed up by facts. I hope you will agree that FoverF posted a well thought out idea, based on facts rather than conjecture or opinion, and we shouldn't give him a hard time just because he confused ESM for ELINT.

OK, let's go back to the idea of basing the JSF on the MCDV with special modifications to their weapons bay to hold a section of ninjasniperSEALs...

MG
 
FoverF said:
The F-35 and F-22 were both designed from the beginning to be ESM platforms, in addition to their respective air superiority and multirole tasks

How's that MG ?

I'm no expert...thats true. I realise that there is potential being explored for an EW role for new generation fighter. But i know what ESM is and what it is not.  i dont feel i was overly harsh, he makes some good points, i wont argue there.  I try not to expand too much into my thoughts on ESM as alot of it  resides in the realm of OPSEC....sorry

And yes, he did post a very well thought out idea with relevant material, it had a rough start but worked out very well. 


edited for terrible typing and hitting the post button while eating supper
 
FoverF  After all that being said it will be interesting to see your filled out proposal. But even if the F-35 is the greatest A/C of all time
and Canada does aquire it sometime in the distant future it will probably be the "A" model .  The chances of Canada getting the "B" are i think slim. If we did get the "B" the chances of it operating in the Naval inviroment are even slimmer. If this slim chance ever came to pass, it would i believe only operate from a large deck ship which in itself is another dream with  small odds of ever coming to pass. The odds of it ever using a small deck except in an emergency are zero, zilch or none.  But dream on, Martin Luther King Jr. also had a dream, and some of it came true.

p.s. I think any wine is good with crow.

Cheers
 
I am not an aircraft expert and even less in electronic warfare, just pointing one or two thoughts extrapolated from what I have read in this post :

I understand the JSF will not be an extremely sophisticated or overly powerful EW mean, but the fact that is can fill a very decent part of that role is a big asset in my opinion. Wasn't the CF-18 bought with the same kind of "not the best in any field but very polyvalent aircraft thought" ? In our limited budget army, we have to find very polyvalent equipment that will fill as much roles as possible. And we still have existing EW means for when the situation requires it, they are just less strained by constant minor sorties that could be done by a less capable aircraft.

Just a thought,
Douke
 
Despite my better judgement I am going to stay involved in this debate  ;D

The CF is now seriously considering purchasing an LHD to fulfil the CDS's "Big Honking Ship" requirement. Options include the LHD variant of the Royal Schelde Enforcer, the Spanish Strategic Projection Ship or possibly other designs. Therefore, the possibility of the CF operating a through-deck aviation ship is very real and, as such, the capability to operate the F-35B will also exist. Now, STONEY, I assume you know that the F-35B is not off the table as far as the CF is concerned, right? The cost difference between the A and the B is not huge and if we did have an LHD or two, purchasing a dozen or so B models when we buy our A models might make a little tiny bit of sense, nescafe?

Here is info on the Enforcer LHD if you're curious: http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/enforcer/

MG
 
Yes, we've already established that I should have said that the F-22 and F-35 were both designed from the beginning to be ELINT platforms, not ESM platforms. My terminology was off there.

As far as displacing a chopper, this is the biggest concern I have at the moment. It's fairly common sense that you could only deploy F-35s as part of a Task Group. A single destroyer/frigate with a single fighter and no helo is not a good idea.

It comes back to the basic fighter truism that; a pair of fighters is an asset, a single fighter is a liability. But then you've got two ships with no helos, and that's no better, unless you can come up with some scenario that involves tac air but no hostile subs, and no need for helo airlift of any kind (including picking up downed pilots). So as a bare minumum, you would need a JSS to provide basing for either the helos, or the fighters (preferably the fighters, but being able to run them off of the smaller vessles might provide some benefits in certain situations. Still looking into this.)

But WRT having a larger flat-topped ship for the fighters, my prosal includes options ranging from a DeGaulle-class carrier (Thales and DCN Brest have offered to build another conventional-powered CdG Class carrier for around $1 billion US...) to a SCADS-type containerized suite that can convert container ships or other vessels to flights ops, to just making do with the JSS.



 
Ok, I have to jump in on this one.

Operating a JSF from a Frigate? What are you basing that idea off of?

I've landed a helicopter multiple times on a frigate, and let me tell you, it's challenging to say the least. Not to mention that a helicopter is designed to hover, not just land and take off vertically. I really have my doubts that you'd be able to station keep with the ship as it's corkscrewing below you while hovering in a VTOL fighter.

But, that's just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.
 
Not to mention that the flight decks are not designed to take the abuse of the thrust a V/STOL jet would produce landing and taking off.
 
lets get our MH first ! Why do we need a SEAD cap or ELINT cap?

your right, I don't know jack.

Chianti anyone.
 
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