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Helicopter/Cyclone discussion (split from HMCS Fredricton thread)

Lance Wiebe

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SeaKingTacco said:
No. It was not a software “bias”. A bias signal built up in pitch channel in Flight Director mode of the Flight Control Computer. It is important to get the terms correct. And since the flight safety investigation is only at an early stage, I am certain a lot more factors will come to light in the coming months. Remember- accidents are complex events consisting of many discrete events that contribute.

I must admit, when the article mentioned it was a software bias, and not a software coding error, I was confused.
I have never heard of a software bias before I read the article.

I am happy to be corrected.
 

Ping Monkey

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Out of curiosity, does anybody know how similar the CH-148 and VH-92 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_VH-92) flight control systems are?  I presume they'd be close/identical.  (I also realize the mission suites are completely dissimilar.)


I was at NAS Patuxent River in March and was pleased to see one conducting flight testing at the time.  From a distance, I thought a Cyclone was on its way into the circuit.


Given the "high profile tasks" that the VH-92 will perform, I'd believe if this if this problem is common in both airframe types, Sikorsky would be getting some pressure by the testing community in Pax River to ensure any flight control issues discovered from this accident and during CH-148 testing are resolved for their fleet.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Baz said:
And everything I just wrote seems like a "haze of technical jargon."  Does the public really need to understand all that?

Since the public is paying for it and providing the recruits to fly them in the future, then I would say yes. You can have the technical description with a brief summary. It's best to get one of your own to write the summary in layman's language, otherwise the media will get it wrong. They may still butcher for their own reasons, but anyone with further interest can then read the press release.
 

Eye In The Sky

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The problem, then, is reporters who admittedly know nothing about the subj then putting things into words they think people will understand that only ends up misleading them;  things like the words "software glitch".
 

observor 69

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"Around the world, fly-by-wire helicopters are rare — as are the experts who understand them"

Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Jun 18, 2020 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 1 hour ago"

A well-written article by Mr. Brewster with perhaps some new info for us non-rotary wing types.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cyclone-chopper-helicopter-crash-fly-by-wire-1.5616809






 

dapaterson

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Baden Guy said:
"Around the world, fly-by-wire helicopters are rare — as are the experts who understand them"

Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Jun 18, 2020 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 1 hour ago"

A well-written article by Mr. Brewster with perhaps some new info for us non-rotary wing types.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cyclone-chopper-helicopter-crash-fly-by-wire-1.5616809

Expert cited: https://www.jurispro.com/expert/shawn-coyle-5640  He has 6500+ hours rotary wing flight; CAF pilot 1969-1984; test pilot; worked with Transport Canada as well.
 

SeaKingTacco

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Baden Guy said:
"Around the world, fly-by-wire helicopters are rare — as are the experts who understand them"

Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Jun 18, 2020 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 1 hour ago"

A well-written article by Mr. Brewster with perhaps some new info for us non-rotary wing types.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cyclone-chopper-helicopter-crash-fly-by-wire-1.5616809

No, not well written. He has stated things in the article that are the precise opposite of what was said at the technical briefing. He has badly mis-stated how bias works and and how temporary deviations from a programmed flight path while in Flight Director mode work (in fact, temporary deviations have no real impact). He implies the pilots were flying via some sort of keyboard which is just ridiculous, when you think about it. He compares this accident to the 737Max accidents, when DFS specifically stated that he did not see a linkage.

 

Good2Golf

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Baden Guy said:
"Around the world, fly-by-wire helicopters are rare — as are the experts who understand them"

Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Jun 18, 2020 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 1 hour ago"

A well-written article by Mr. Brewster with perhaps some new info for us non-rotary wing types.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cyclone-chopper-helicopter-crash-fly-by-wire-1.5616809

Generally on point, relying heavily on Shawn Coyle’s expertise (definitely a good thing), but still some inaccuracies and/or omissions:

1. Sikorsky does have previous FBW experience. It worked with Boeing jointly in the cancelled RAH-66 Comanche program. Boeing leveraged that FBW experience into the Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey program and Bell subsequently applied that jointly with AgustaWestland to the AB-609 tilt rotor (that become the Leonardo AW-609) and it’s own V-280 Valor tilt rotor. It would have been good to see a link to what if any transfer of FBW had occurred internally at Sikorsky from the RAH-66 to the H-92/CH-148;

2.  For what Mr. Brewster was trying to achieve, which I believe was a critical look at the program, it seemed appropriate to look further back in the article than the Conservative government’s 2015 formal decision to retire the CH-124A Sea King, particularly the Liberal government’s 2004/2005 decision to proceed with the H-92 as a developmental aircraft than the EH-101 Merlin production aircraft; and

3.  A Flight Director capability is not just a FBW thing, the Chinook, Cormorant and Griffon all have flight directors as well that couple the flight controls to various degrees.  Various autopilot modes fundamentally aren’t new, even if the implementation/platform specifics are.

Regards
G2G
 

Eye In The Sky

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Article Link

On June 18, 2020, the Office of the Chief Coroner for Ontario identified the remains of four of the six Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) members killed in the CH-148 Cyclone helicopter crash of April 29.

Remains of the following CAF members have been positively identified:

Captain Kevin Hagen, Pilot, originally from Nanaimo, British Columbia  :cdnsalute:

Captain Maxime Miron-Morin, Air Combat Systems Officer, originally from Bécancour, Quebec  :cdnsalute:

Sub-Lieutenant Matthew Pyke, Naval Warfare Officer, originally from Truro, Nova Scotia  :cdnsalute:

Master Corporal Matthew Cousins, Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator, originally from Guelph, Ontario  :cdnsalute:

Their remains were located and recovered during a combined CAF-United States Navy search and recovery operation conducted between May 25 and June 2. The families of all crew members lost in the accident have been notified.

Remains of Sub-Lieutenant Abbigail Cowbrough, a Marine Systems Engineering Officer originally from Toronto, Ontario, were previously identified shortly after the accident. Partial remains of Captain Brenden MacDonald, a Pilot originally from New Glasgow, Nova Scotia, were originally identified on May 9; no further remains were found in the recovery operations.

Over the coming days, our fallen who have now been positively identified, will be released to the families so they can be brought home. Ceremonial arrangements are being planned by the Royal Canadian Navy and Royal Canadian Air Force in consultation with the families, and will be communicated when available.

** I realize this is already posted in Thoughts and Prayers;  details of the REPAT will be coming shortly.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Cyclone hot loads a training torpedo during Rimpac
https://twitter.com/RoyalCanNavy/status/1295678418562973697
 
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