High Ranking Police Folk Allegedly Behaving Badly

[OldSolduer]

In my 20 years in a jail I think we average one a year who is allowed to "resign". Most are for "inappropriate relationships with inmates" although staff inappropriate stuff happens too. We had two guys allowed to "resign" despite the fact they were smuggling drugs in.

Our issue is supervisors do not document shit properly - and there is virtually no leadership training that supervisors have to undergo. Yes they get some "management" training BUT have no clue how to handle staff that are consistently late or booking off sick.

 

[lenaitch]

A claw back of accrued pension benefits is not legal

As a punitive matter - no, but, depending on the terms of the particular pension plan, if you retire 'before points', there can be significant financial implications since you are typically only entitled to the accrued 'commuted value'. Many of these dudes want to hang in until they reach pensionable time, however that is calculated.

Most pension plans operate essentially as a contract between the Plan, the employer and employee and are not at the sole behest of the employer to play silly bugger with, unlike some US jurisdictions and the RCMP it seems.

 

[brihard]

As a punitive matter - no, but, depending on the terms of the particular pension plan, if you retire 'before points', there can be significant financial implications since you are typically only entitled to the accrued 'commuted value'. Many of these dudes want to hang in until they reach pensionable time, however that is calculated.

Most pension plans operate essentially as a contract between the Plan, the employer and employee and are not at the sole behest of the employer to play silly bugger with, unlike some US jurisdictions and the RCMP it seems.

Yeah, the RCMP have a legislated/regulated federal plan just like the public service and CAF. I guess that means the federal government was able to make that a thing in their pension. I think the criteria was they have to be dismissed for misconduct.

 

[dapaterson]

Per the RCMP Superannuation Regulations:

Persons Convicted of Indictable Offences​

25 In the case of a person who is convicted after retirement from the Force of an indictable offence committed while the person was a member of the Force any annuity, annual allowance or pension payable under Part I of the Act or Part V of the former Act to or in respect of the person may be reduced by the Treasury Board if, in its opinion, the commission of the offence constituted misconduct in the performance of the person’s duties as a member of the Force.

• SOR/95-571, s. 6
• SOR/2013-125, s. 33

 

[brihard]

Per the RCMP Superannuation Regulations:

Persons Convicted of Indictable Offences​

25 In the case of a person who is convicted after retirement from the Force of an indictable offence committed while the person was a member of the Force any annuity, annual allowance or pension payable under Part I of the Act or Part V of the former Act to or in respect of the person may be reduced by the Treasury Board if, in its opinion, the commission of the offence constituted misconduct in the performance of the person’s duties as a member of the Force.

• SOR/95-571, s. 6
• SOR/2013-125, s. 33

Yup, they can’t quit out from under it if there’s a criminal prosecution.

That’s from the regulations. From the RCMP Superannuation Act:

“Dismissal for misconduct

(4) A contributor who is compulsorily retired from the Force by reason of misconduct is entitled to

• (a) a return of contributions; or
• (b) in the discretion of the Treasury Board, the whole or any part specified by the Treasury Board of any benefit to which he or she would have been entitled under this section if
  • (i) in the case of a contributor who at the time of his or her retirement had reached retirement age, he or she had ceased to be a member of the Force for any reason other than disability or misconduct, or
  • (ii) in the case of a contributor who at the time of his or her retirement had not reached retirement age, he or she had been compulsorily retired from the Force to promote economy or efficiency due to a reduction in the total number of members of the Force,”

So basically if an RCMP member (cop or civilian member) gets kicked out for misconduct, TBS may choose to go after their pension, or may allow them to keep it. If an RCMP member resigns voluntarily but is criminally convicted for something that would have been misconduct, same deal.

 

[Haggis]

In my 20 years in a jail I think we average one a year who is allowed to "resign". Most are for "inappropriate relationships with inmates" although staff inappropriate stuff happens too. We had two guys allowed to "resign" despite the fact they were smuggling drugs in.

Our issue is supervisors do not document shit properly - and there is virtually no leadership training that supervisors have to undergo. Yes they get some "management" training BUT have no clue how to handle staff that are consistently late or booking off sick.

That issue is not unique to your government workplace. The federal government writ large is good at generating managers, but sucks at generating leaders.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Dear Ottawa Police,

Please request that anyone convicted where this shit stain testified be granted an immediate pardon, and be paid $420K from the OPA.

Staff Sgt. Will Hinterberger pleads guilty, resigns from Ottawa police as sexual assault case quietly reaches resolution

The veteran officer will not serve jail time if he abides by court-imposed conditions as his sexual assault case quietly reaches a resolution.

ottawacitizen.com

Am I the only one that noticed the article claims he had a restricted Lee Enfield rifle ?

What beast is this ?

 

[lenaitch]

Yup, they can’t quit out from under it if there’s a criminal prosecution.

That’s from the regulations. From the RCMP Superannuation Act:

“Dismissal for misconduct

(4) A contributor who is compulsorily retired from the Force by reason of misconduct is entitled to

• (a) a return of contributions; or
• (b) in the discretion of the Treasury Board, the whole or any part specified by the Treasury Board of any benefit to which he or she would have been entitled under this section if
  • (i) in the case of a contributor who at the time of his or her retirement had reached retirement age, he or she had ceased to be a member of the Force for any reason other than disability or misconduct, or
  • (ii) in the case of a contributor who at the time of his or her retirement had not reached retirement age, he or she had been compulsorily retired from the Force to promote economy or efficiency due to a reduction in the total number of members of the Force,”

So basically if an RCMP member (cop or civilian member) gets kicked out for misconduct, TBS may choose to go after their pension, or may allow them to keep it. If an RCMP member resigns voluntarily but is criminally convicted for something that would have been misconduct, same deal.

I'm a bit surprised that hasn't been Charter-challenged, but I get the sense that it's exercise has been quite rare.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I know it's a non starter, but humour me.

The RCMP was organized based on a Cavalry Regiment
The RCMP was presented an Cavalry style guidon, by the King in 1935, listing their battle honours
The RCMP acts as a paramilitary organization when the government requires
The RCMP is covered under Veterans Affairs.
I have been told they are also listed on the Order of Battle, although I couldn’t find anything.

What if the RCMP was also governed by KR&O, instead of civilian law?

 

[Booter]

I know it's a non starter, but humour me.

The RCMP was organized based on a Cavalry Regiment
The RCMP was presented an Cavalry style guidon, by the King in 1935, listing their battle honours
The RCMP acts as a paramilitary organization when the government requires
The RCMP is covered under Veterans Affairs.
I have been told they are also listed on the Order of Battle, although I couldn’t find anything.

What if the RCMP was also governed by KR&O, instead of civilian law?

Look into first Canadian Army- Canadian Provost Corps, but I don’t believe any current references including the RCMP are accurate.

 

[lenaitch]

I know it's a non starter, but humour me.

The RCMP was organized based on a Cavalry Regiment
The RCMP was presented an Cavalry style guidon, by the King in 1935, listing their battle honours
The RCMP acts as a paramilitary organization when the government requires
The RCMP is covered under Veterans Affairs.
I have been told they are also listed on the Order of Battle, although I couldn’t find anything.

What if the RCMP was also governed by KR&O, instead of civilian law?

The contract provinces that have independent civilian oversight agencies might have views on that.

I'm often a tad bemused by the terms "paramilitary" in relation to police services, other than wearing a uniform and using some military-derived supervisory and managerial designators. Change 'sergeant' to 'shift supervisor' and you have McDonalds. I don't know about the RCMP, but most police services now are barely 'quasi-military'.

 

[daftandbarmy]

'Exciting' news...

Canadian coroners starting to reject excited delirium as cause of police-related deaths​

North American doctors and psychiatrists are also questioning contentious explanation for sudden deaths​

As a coroner's jury takes their seats Monday in the inquest into the death of Myles Gray, they may hear arguments that his death was the result of something called excited delirium, and not the actions of Vancouver police officers.

Excited delirium has also been cited by Ottawa police officers in connection with the death of Abdirahman Abdi during a violent arrest, a coroner's jury looking into a death in a New Brunswick jail, senior RCMP officers after the death of Robert Dziekanski at Vancouver's airport, and defence lawyers for the American officer who murdered George Floyd.

The highly contentious term describes a state of agitation, aggression and distress generally linked to drug use or mental illness, and it's been used as an explanation for sudden, unexpected deaths during interactions with police.

It was one of several possible explanations given by a forensic pathologist for the death of Gray, an unarmed 33-year-old who died in 2015 after being handcuffed, hobbled, punched, kneed, kicked, pepper-sprayed and struck with a baton by several Vancouver officers. He was making a delivery for his florist business at the time, and police had been called after he confronted a homeowner for watering her lawn during an extended drought.

But a major shift is underway, and medical examiners and coroners across Canada and the U.S. are starting to reject excited delirium as a cause of death. Both the American Medical Association and the American Psychiatric Association have dismissed the diagnosis entirely.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/coro...r_Morning Headlines from CBC News_1613_966723

 

[Booter]

It’s an academic conversation that isn’t really relevant to police. The most important paragraph in that story is:

Dr. Nash Denic, chief medical examiner for Newfoundland, said he considers excited delirium to be a misnomer, since delirious states caused by drug use, withdrawal or mental illness are inherently excited.

Both he and his counterpart in Manitoba, Dr. John Younes, said excited delirium might be a mechanism of death, but not the cause. For example, cocaine toxicity that causes someone's death might manifest as a dangerous delirium.

We ve operated under this idea for years- it’s not a “diagnosis” but a catchall presentation that requires immediate medical attention- that requires force to bring under control as quickly as possible to get that medical intervention. EMS not the emergency room will not interact with these people until they are brought under control. So call it whatever but…

 

[brihard]

It’s an academic conversation that isn’t really relevant to police. The most important paragraph in that story is:


We ve operated under this idea for years- it’s not a “diagnosis” but a catchall presentation that requires immediate medical attention- that requires force to bring under control as quickly as possible to get that medical intervention. EMS not the emergency room will not interact with these people until they are brought under control. So call it whatever but…

Right. For us it’s a useful shorthand we can go over the radio with that people will ‘get’. We and our EMS colleagues will be forewarned about the behaviour we’re rolling into. As always, our goal is to police and control the offending behaviour and reduce threats/dangers. We aren’t in the business of diagnosis.

Most good cops will try to talk things out with a suspect first, if time, distance, and behaviour allow. Some people simply will not be talked down though, and whatever their medical state may be, we still have to deal with it.

In my organization we have policy mandating calling EMS if we thing we have ‘excited delirium’, or if we deploy a taser more than once, or if a suspect is injured.

Only real improvement I could see would be getting better across the board at ground fighting and gaining physical control of a resistant suspect. But if the other guy chooses to fight hard enough, especially if he won’t let you see or control his hands, it’s gonna be ugly to watch.

 

[Booter]

Ground fighting a guy with cocaine psychosis would be good pay per view.

 

[mariomike]

There is universal confusion around excited delirium syndrome (ExDS): What is it and how should it be treated? The short answer is we do not know the answers, and there are no comprehensive treatment guidelines or formal criteria.

Stop Using Term ‘Excited Delirium,’ Medical Examiner Group Says​

Stop Using Term 'Excited Delirium,' Medical Examiner Group Says - JEMS: EMS, Emergency Medical Services - Training, Paramedic, EMT News

A leading group of medical experts says the term “excited delirium” should not be listed as a cause of death.

www.jems.com

 

[brihard]

Ground fighting a guy with cocaine psychosis would be good pay per view.

Yeah- obviously I’m talking in the context of a polyester pig pile where someone has the presence of mind to lever an arm out using something more technique-based and effective than repeated knee strikes and more tasering.

 

[Haggis]

Yeah- obviously I’m talking in the context of a polyester pig pile.

Also known as a "Smurfing", as everyone on top of the subject is blue.

 

[Booter]

Yeah- obviously I’m talking in the context of a polyester pig pile where someone has the presence of mind to lever an arm out using something more technique-based and effective than repeated knee strikes and more tasering.

‘Till the cuff chain breaks, or you break the arm and they don’t care.

I’m just being a dickface. You’re right. But the pig pile kills them more often than the taser

 

[brihard]

‘Till the cuff chain breaks, or you break the arm and they don’t care.

I’m just being a dickface. You’re right. But the pig pile kills them more often than the taser

Oh, for sure. Taser’s a fantastic tool, used right. I really like how the new X7 lets you arc the current as a demonstration without firing the cartridge.