High Ranking Police Folk Allegedly Behaving Badly

[Booter]

Show me where they get lighter sentences in court being as they are “common place”. I’ll show you people sexually assaulting children and getting probation. So let’s do it. Show me where police officers are getting “lighter sentences”

we ll start there.

Police aren’t generally arrested at the time because there aren’t grounds to arrest them as we know them, they have no criminal history, and if we stop them from driving or take their gun out of their locker they are no longer able to continue the offence. Which is the standard for whether an everyday person is arrested as well.

I have arrested cops. Including those in uniform. You’re just unhappy we don’t parade them in uniform in front of a camera and embarrass them. You don’t want equal treatment you want them treated worse. It would be a more honest conversation if you could just admit that.

The court systems first time sentences for everyone are light. If you’re shocked at their criminal conviction sentences: it is shock with the systems usual punishments. You are just seeing a normal sentence in Canada first hand- little to nothing to do with being a police officer.

The most common assault outcome in Canada is a fine or a conditional sentence. Impaireds- diving prohibs and fines. Same for everyone. Threatening people is a peace bond and a conditional sentence. Like it’s literally the same for everyone. Domestics that are simple assault 266- usually deferred for spousal counselling and programming with a conditional sentence,

These are what every Canadian can expect from their first criminal charges. While there are cops charged multiple times, and charged with more serious offences, anything higher than these on their firsts would be worse than anyone else. If you want to make that argument it can be made- but your “special treatment” argument is make believe.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'm sure IA folks are recruited internally.

Yeah. I'm just passionate about this stuff.

If the incident is reported, most likely.

What would happen if a CBSA agent got mad at a coworker and pointed a loaded weapon at them?

I have seen - first hand - the exact opposite in my line of work. Professional courtesy only gets you so far.

The case of a off-duty RCMP officer hitting a 14 year old and being told by the first cop on the scene to go home and wait before the scene was properly investigated comes to mind.

The public assumes that LEOs are experts in firearms handling. As a firearms instructor I can tell you this is not the case. Better than average, yes, but by no means "experts".

I agree about LEOs not being experts with firearms, both in the handling sense or laws surrounding them. Pointing a loaded firearm at someone because you're mad is a completely different issue though.

 

[Booter]

The case of an off-duty RCMP officer hitting a 14 year old and being told by the first cop on the scene to go home and wait before the scene was properly investigated comes to mind.

Quick tell me what the “scene being properly investigated” looks like for an assault of a 14 year old?

Simple assault complaints unless there are extenuating circumstances are compelled to court without an arrest. For everyone. I know where Bill lives and I’ve id’d him. I get statements. If a charge is supported we just give them a court date on a document.

In your case Cop Bill faces professional sanctions as well. So he gets to go through two investigations.

 

[Haggis]

Yeah. I'm just passionate about this stuff.

That's admirable. Perhaps a VOT is in order.

What would happen if a CBSA agent got mad at a coworker and pointed a loaded weapon at them?

To my knowledge it hasn't happened yet. But suspensions have been handed out for lesser transgressions. And, for the umpteenth time on these forums, we are Border Services Officers not CBSA agents, despite what the MSM says.

I agree about LEOs not being experts with firearms, both in the handling sense or laws surrounding them.

BSO applicants (see what I did there) are required to successfully complete the CFSC and CRFSC prior to applying to CBSA, so there's that which gives them a bit of an advantage on a lot of other Canadian LEOs as far as understanding our byzantine firearms laws. That being said, we enforce or administer almost 100 federal acts and regulations so we can't be experts in all of them.

Pointing a loaded firearm at someone because you're mad is a completely different issue though.

I don't care who you are, that's just stupid and, if you don't face criminal sanctions, you should lose your privileges to carry a firearm for at least a substantial period of time and be re-trained and re-evaluated, as per agency policy.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Show me where they get lighter sentences in court being as they are “common place”. I’ll show you people sexually assaulting children and getting probation. So let’s do it. Show me where police officers are getting “lighter sentences”

I'm going to assume your response was primarily to me.

Let's start with Constable Roesler. Was her pointing a loaded firearm at a police officer and arguably threatening them, getting what amounts to a $3000 or $4000 fine and moving work locations, a light average or heavy punishment?

Police aren’t generally arrested at the time because there aren’t grounds to arrest them as we know them, they have no criminal history, and if we stop them from driving or take their gun out of their locker they are no longer able to continue the offence. Which is the standard for whether an everyday person is arrested as well.

As Brihard pointed out, we don't know if she had her firearm removed from her possession. She still threatened a police officer with a firearm and a handful of other criminal code offences. I hope they did that much at least.

I have arrested cops. Including those in uniform.

That's great to hear they didn't get special treatment. Are you able to say why?

You’re just unhappy we don’t parade them in uniform in front of a camera and embarrass them.

I don't even think hardcore criminals should be paraded infront of cameras, I think perp walks are disgusting. I don't want to see cops embarassed. I do want to see transparency and citizens to see what cops are disiplined for. The same way the military treats courts marshal. The military should be more transparent with other forms of discipline people get hit with too.

You don’t want equal treatment you want them treated worse. It would be a more honest conversation if you could just admit that.

If by treated worse you mean held to a higher standard for behavior and punishment then yes. Just like people in the military with higher authority or rank. They should be held to a higher standard of behavior and recieve harsher punishment. A police officer shouldn't get a light sentence for pointing a loaded handgun at someone because they're big mad. She should have been charged.

The court systems first time sentences for everyone are light.

You're right, but not just first time offenders.

If you’re shocked at their criminal conviction sentences: it is shock with the systems usual punishments. You are just seeing a normal sentence in Canada first hand- little to nothing to do with being a police officer.

And the big unanswered question comes back to whether criminal charges were even considered in this officers case.

Threatening people is a peace bond and a conditional sentence. Like it’s literally the same for everyone.

If I point a loaded gun at a cop will I get any kind of firearms ban?

If you want to make that argument it can be made- but your “special treatment” argument is make believe.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong.

I don't have a criminal record and I can find a few people to write letters saying I'm a good guy. If you piss me off and I pull a loaded pistol on you, threaten you, then put my pistol away, what happens to me?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Counseling...

 

[daftandbarmy]

I don't have a criminal record and I can find a few people to write letters saying I'm a good guy. If you piss me off and I pull a loaded pistol on you, threaten you, then put my pistol away, what happens to me?

An Ozzie cop got sentenced to 100 hours community service for pointing his gun at a colleague ..

Top Gun: Maverick spoiler threat prompts officer to pull gun on colleague​

Gaynor's lawyer said his client acknowledged his mistake while denying any malicious intent to scare or intimidate.

He told the court this was a case of "skylarking and tomfoolery" that had "gone awry". He said his client was remorseful, and that the incident would "cost him dearly".

In his sentencing, the judge noted the "power imbalance" between Gaynor and his more junior colleague.

He acknowledged several character references for Gaynor, saying the officer's actions represented "an unfortunate lapse of judgement", which was not representative of his "true character".

Gaynor was today handed a community corrections order for two years, 100 hours of community service, and recorded a conviction, ABC reports.

Top Gun: Maverick spoiler threat prompts officer to pull gun on colleague

An Australian officer is sentenced after threatening to shoot a colleague over a plot spoiler.

www.bbc.com

 

[Jarnhamar]

Quick tell me what the “scene being properly investigated” looks like for an assault of a 14 year old?

Edit- I wasn't clear and you thought I was talking about a simple assault or something along those lines.

Here's what I'm referring to.

Off duty RCMP officer hit a 14 year old kid with their car. The first cop on the scene told the off duty police officer to go home and wait before any investigation took place. They were sent home before providing a statement. They drove the vehicle they struck the kid with home. No pictures of the vehicle taken on scene.

A complaint was made to the Public Safety Canada / Civilian Review and Complaints Commission. The CRCC found there was sufficient concern that this treatment was “special treatment” because the person at fault was a fellow officer. They referred the matter for a disciplinary hearing.

 

[lenaitch]

Domestics that are simple assault 266- usually deferred for spousal counselling and programming with a conditional sentence,

For the longest time in Ontario (don't know if it still the same), domestic assault (or 'domestic anything' - apparently you can commit Mischief by damaging your own property) was a Peace Bond, suspended sentence and conditional discharge - conditional on making a donation to a charity (and there just happens to be reps of one or two sitting in the court room. Donate, give receipt to the court office and condition satisfied). Police and Crown were under instructions to oppose bail so (usually) buddy just wants it to be over so he can go to work on Monday. Most of the time the missus didn't want him charged in the first place and she wants him to go to work Monday as well. Crown gets a docket cleared.

Sorry. Off topic.

 

[Booter]

I'm going to assume your response was primarily to me.

Let's start with Constable Roesler. Was her pointing a loaded firearm at a police officer and arguably threatening them, getting what amounts to a $3000 or $4000 fine and moving work locations, a light average or heavy punishment?

You’re conflating conduct and criminal charges again. The conduct hearing isn’t about the criminal component. It is about the breach of the code of conduct. The conduct hearing discusses the circumstances of the event but it is not a second chance to assign criminal blame to the officer, it deals with the conduct component, like this one would have one allegation of “misuse of RCMP equipment” among others. But it’s not about the gun pointing per se. it would be about their judgement etc the gun pointing is the circumstance discussed not the reason for the allegation. Unlike criminal allegations where the gun pointing is the offence.

The event was also in 2019…if it’s as common as you say do we have any better recent examples?

You’re also misunderstanding what a CRCC level for referring things to an hearing is. The level is- “that is a possibility or a PERCEIVED possibility - have it investigated” and then it’s spoken to at the conduct hearing or meeting. It isn’t a finding of any sort. If you have a link to the file I can look for the discipline summary- if it can’t be located it means the investigation disagreed with the accusation and it didn’t make it through to a conduct hearing. This one seems easy to look into if you have the details.

It is insanity that you’re suggesting the crown would not lay charges based off their employment, (like you’re not insane it’s just outlandish to people that have that relationship to manage) that is not the nature of the relationship.

They may not have been laid because unlike everyone else, the police always have firearms present and have to make calls on their use. This includes drawing and holstering in situations where they are assessing the circumstances and not necessarily in the midst of a GBH/death threat. The crown may not have seen a substantial likelihood of conviction because of all the nuance surrounding firearms being present and their current file load combined with any number of factors including public interest.

Specifically in your file you’re referencing the constable and the victim had different versions of events. She said she didn’t point it at him. He said she did. She said it was a joke and he said he wasn’t sure he would have been struck if it went off, the firearms were lawfully present. The crown may have been completely uninterested in the efforts needed to make that file work to only MAYBE get a conviction. All that we know is that any conduct allegation like this would have had a statutory (criminal investigation) associated to it. What they did with it is not in the hands of the police. But should the crown not proceed this isn’t a second chance to get them. That isn’t the intent of the conduct process.

They also go into situations where they are in conflict with people on purpose. The rules governing their behavior are different, should a police officer lose their job for pointing a firearm at a coworker because they are mad in the bullpen? Yes. That seems very simple to me. That person has bad judgement.

There was a file not long ago where a person drew a firearm on police. Guess what? No charges. No arrest. The circumstances didn’t warrant it. People were of two minds on it. But it just wasn’t supported. It could have gone either way. Same with several self defence files. But when there aren’t charges laid there is no news. It’s only the ones where there are because that’s where the outrage is.

I’ve arrested police for Domestic violence. Firearms related offences. Disarming a police officer etc. and I’m talking big planned arrests. Impaired driving too. I’m old. I’ve seen a lot of them.

If cops point their gun at someone on the range their day is over just like in the CF. That’s not really the discussion here.

 

[Booter]

Here’s what I will say. I think the general conduct and expectations of the police are on a downward trajectory.

There are higher levels of scrutiny in some areas but the trend in things like conduct isn’t super positive.

As with everything I think that the truth is somewhere between “everything is fine” and “police get special treatment”.

I find most components of health care, courts, social services, and education broken in weird ways. It’s like a symptom of low expectations of our institutions rather than malicious or special treatment but I’m a cynic.

 

[Booter]

@Jarnhamar I look like a dickhead in these posts to you. I totally missed the mark on tone- that’s on me. Please accept my apology- you don’t like cops that take the shine off the badge- I feel the same way, we probably agree on 80% of what we read about in these stories quite easily. I need to up my meds and proof read better to make sure I’m not looking like I’m rabid. You’re not the issue.

Like the part where I accuse you of “wanting them paraded” and getting the worse end of things- that’s not based on anything you said and was unfair.

 

[Jarnhamar]

You’re conflating conduct and criminal charges again. The conduct hearing isn’t about the criminal component. It is about the breach of the code of conduct. The conduct hearing discusses the circumstances of the event but it is not a second chance to assign criminal blame to the officer, it deals with the conduct component, like this one would have one allegation of “misuse of RCMP equipment” among others. But it’s not about the gun pointing per se. it would be about their judgement etc the gun pointing is the circumstance discussed not the reason for the allegation. Unlike criminal allegations where the gun pointing is the offence.

Editing for brevity.

Like you mentioned in your other post I think we agree on most of this stuff. I'm a little too quick to jump to worse case scenarios sometimes (see below)

 

[Jarnhamar]

@Jarnhamar I look like a dickhead in these posts to you. I totally missed the mark on tone- that’s on me. Please accept my apology- you don’t like cops that take the shine off the badge- I feel the same way, we probably agree on 80% of what we read about in these stories quite easily. I need to up my meds and proof read better to make sure I’m not looking like I’m rabid. You’re not the issue.

Like the part where I accuse you of “wanting them paraded” and getting the worse end of things- that’s not based on anything you said and was unfair.

All good! It's easy for me to fire shots without having a more informed view on how this stuff works civi side. That's accurate I don't like cops that take the shine off the badge (as you don't). I want to highlight I'm not anti-cop by any stretch, it's obviously an incredibly difficult job to do well and everyone is waiting for you to screw up and jump on you for it. I'm equally critical of CAF members who do stupid and especially unethical shit. I've seen quite a few members of the CAF in positions of authority get away with terrible behavior over my years in. Not being in a position to do anything about it makes it way worse. Unfortunately I think it's also created a (quick to condemn) bias when it comes to anyone in a position of authority who fails to be professional, legitimately or even potentially. Sometimes I'm a little too quick to pull out my gun

 

[Cloud Cover]

I’ve arrested police for Domestic violence. Firearms related offences. Disarming a police officer etc. and I’m talking big planned arrests. Impaired driving too. I’m old. I’ve seen a lot of them.

If cops point their gun at someone on the range their day is over just like in the CF. That’s not really the discussion here.

Ok, laugh time.

“Impaired driving too. I’m old. I’ve seen a lot of them..”

31 years ago, on my first RIDE program shift with LPS in Ontario, I randomly waved a Mercedes Sedan into an open spot at the screening and roadside testing area. Unbeknownst to me the operator of the vehicle was a Deputy Chief who in fact had been drinking but was not impaired. I’ll never forget him because he was wearing a fur coat and was truly a smug old English bastard. Turns out the car ahead of him, which I did not wave in, was Julian Fantino (The Chief at the time). lol. The Chiefs had been at their Christmas dinner at a swanky restaurant down by the Thames.

I didn’t get anymore scheduled overtime that season. I didn’t stay in policing either.

 

[dapaterson]

An announcement that raises more questions than it answers, and no doubt a bunch of defence lawyers are now looking for a copy to impugn police officers in Sault Ste Marie.

Message from the Sault Ste. Marie Police Service - Sault Ste. Marie Police Service

Message from the Sault Ste. Marie Police Service - A modern police service for a safer tomorrow.

saultpolice.ca

Edit: local news article that spurred the announcement.

Leaked police recording offers 'a slice of the culture,' researcher says

'Those guys are untouchable': Recording of a comedy roast obtained by a researcher contains audio of police cracking jokes about sexual harassment, trumped-up charges and destroying evidence

www.sootoday.com

 

[Haggis]

Well, it's not OPS this time, but still. 12 years worth of alleged offences before charges were laid. The reasons why will be interesting.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If I point a loaded gun at a cop will I get any kind of firearms ban?

If I point a firearm at anyone, let alone an armed cop, they'd be pumping air to me. Thousands of dollars to lawyers. Loss of all my firearms and accessories. Loss of my PAL with a lifetime ban. Flagged at every traffic stop the rest of my life.

I understand many cops have neither a PAL or private firearms. That should be completely insignificant. Although it would be interesting to find out if she did.

 

[brihard]

I understand many cops have neither a PAL or private firearms. That should be completely insignificant. Although it would be interesting to find out if she did.

Anecdotally I’d say probably most of us don’t.

 

[Haggis]

Anecdotally I’d say probably most of us don’t.

You might be surprised. I'd say that roughly 10% of my gun club membership is active or retired LEOs.