High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[Halifax Tar]

Quite possibly. With my memory these days it's hard to recall what I posted this morning.

The only point I was trying to make was that any public work that requires land that the government (or government-backed consortium) doesn't already own is inevitably going to require an 'eminent domain' type acquisition unless we want it to be reduced to a series of willing participant transactions or accept that projects simply won't be done.

I get it; expropriation sucks if you are on the receiving end, but setting aside if HSR is a good idea or not, how else are large-scale undertakings that are allegedly in the public interest expected to proceed?

Right now, the CAF is getting a lot of push-back in the Simcoe County area because of its land requirements for the proposed OTH radar. Accepting the technical requirements that the site has to be situated there, does the government simply shrug and walk away muttering (and telling its NORAD partner) 'I guess we don't need modern radar'? Even if they could shift it a bit, I doubt there is a lot of land in southern Ontario, particular a large, contiguous plot, that isn't owned by somebody.

If its that so important that we need to buy peoples private land, pay what the people want or go find another route/place.

 

[Halifax Tar]

People saw the area of study and lost their minds. When all is said and done it'll be a strip 60 meters wide and there'll be plenty consultation and accommodation.

Alto tripped up by not making this plain in there initial presentations.

I am glad you're ok with 60 meters.

I wont post names but this is a screen cap of one post:



This isn't healing Canada. Shame on this Gov.

 

[ytz]

the survey lines at least delineate the dividing line between landowners. If you can follow one of them the right of way will take 50 meters off adjacent lots without butchering a series of properties. Might be a number of houses to set back or replace but at least the majority of land is accessible. The problems after Havelock for their northern route are swamps and lakes. Its reasonably flat but from Perth to Ottawa there are a lot of good properties and farmland to contend with.

They have pledged to do exactly this. Funny how you give highways the benefit of doubt. And don't even bother to understand what Alto proposes to do but jump right to criticism.

They have repeatedly said, their goal is minimal expropriation. They will use existing corridors and lot lines to the maximum extent practicable.

 

[ytz]

If its that so important that we need to buy peoples private land, pay what the people want or go find another route/place.

And to be clear, they have said expropriation is not first resort. And that compensation will not be based on land value alone but includes things like loss of business.

 

[Halifax Tar]

And to be clear, they have said expropriation is not first resort. And that compensation will not be based on land value alone but includes things like loss of business.

I am unwilling to circle this drain with you. I understand you are deeply committed to this and have a damn the torpedoes attitude for the people, land and space this will trample over.

You know what, I will walk that back a bit. I was being unfair

This is not healing Canada. Shame on this Gov. *I maintain this point though.

There is a way to do this and not create division and tare apart family farms and communities. Give them their asking price to leave the land. Get their consent.

 

[Altair]

This thread was much better closed.

 

[YZT580]

They have pledged to do exactly this. Funny how you give highways the benefit of doubt. And don't even bother to understand what Alto proposes to do but jump right to criticism.

They have repeatedly said, their goal is minimal expropriation. They will use existing corridors and lot lines to the maximum extent practicable.

and the government promised a balanced budget......And no I did not give the highways the benefit of the doubt. You really must have struggled in school with your comprehension deficiency.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

A friend posted something on FB that made me think of this waste of money.....he basically said as a PSA to not even think of driving from Ste St Marie to Toronto through Ontario, but to take the Interstate through Michigan.
Even the responses to his post make Highway 69 sound like a disaster to drive......lets fix what we got before we build more stuff we cant afford to maintain.

 

[ytz]

I am unwilling to circle this drain with you. I understand you are deeply committed to this and have a damn the torpedoes attitude for the people, land and space this will trample over.

You know what, I will walk that back a bit. I was being unfair

This is not healing Canada. Shame on this Gov. *I maintain this point though.

There is a way to do this and not create division and tare apart family farms and communities. Give them their asking price to leave the land. Get their consent.

To be clear. I don't support the idea of just expropriating. Every effort should be made to be compassionate and make a fair offer. And so far, I don't see anything that says Alto intends to do anything less than that.

 

[Halifax Tar]

To be clear. I don't support the idea of just expropriating. Every effort should be made to be compassionate and make a fair offer. And so far, I don't see anything that says Alto intends to do anything less than that.

I agree. And I apologize for my retracted inflammatory statement.

I think where we differ is what we see as fair.

If this is truly so important, just pay what the families/people/organizations want. The budget for this is going to be mind boggling high numbers anyways. What's a few more billion ?

 

[Czech_pivo]

I agree. And I apologize for my retracted inflammatory statement.

I think where we differ is what we see as fair.

If this is truly so important, just pay what the families/people/organizations want. The budget for this is going to be mind boggling high numbers anyways. What's a few more billion ?

A major issue is the definition of the word 'fair'.

If the 'fair' market value of a property is 'X' and the Government offers 'X + 35%' - that could be enough extra compensation for say 30% of those affected. What about the other 70%? If the Government goes and increases it to be 'X + 50%' and that brings the number up another 35%, does that mean that the Government should go back to the first 30% and pay them another 15%? What if we got to the point that there's 10% of those affected left and they are not budging at offers of 'X + 65%' - can the Government then just say that's the final offer and we are expropriating you on this date and the OPP will be there to escort you off the land on that date, would that be ok?

It's impossible to pay the families 'what they want' because some fringe individuals will demand buyouts that are outside the realm of reality.

 

[Halifax Tar]

It's impossible to pay the families 'what they want' because some fringe individuals will demand buyouts that are outside the realm of reality.

Then the Gov shouldn't get the land. Find another route/seller. You will never get me to agree that expropriation of private property is ever the right answer. Especially for one like this which is essentially a pet project.

Maybe MAYBE temporarily in a time of war (meaning invasion), but even then it should be returned to the prior owner in perfect condition when the threat subsides, quickly, and at public expense.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Then the Gov shouldn't get the land. Find another route/seller.

Yes, there is that option and I'm sure that the government will try that approach.

When that happens, I'm that there will be remorse by some for not selling and taking the extra 30, 40, 50, ?% and moving elsewhere once this is done and, conversely I'm sure that there will be some that have seller's remorse and will complain long and loud that they didn't get enough and regret their decisions.

Either way, eggs will be broken to make this omelet.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yes, there is that option and I'm sure that the government will try that approach.

When that happens, I'm that there will be remorse by some for not selling and taking the extra 30, 40, 50, ?% and moving elsewhere once this is done and, conversely I'm sure that there will be some that have seller's remorse and will complain long and loud that they didn't get enough and regret their decisions.

Either way, eggs will be broken to make this omelet.

That's their choice. Taking the choice away from them is my problem with this.

 

[Czech_pivo]

That's their choice. Taking the choice away from them is my problem with this.

Agreed.

 

[mariomike]

Concerned readers may, or may not, find the Expropriations Act a useful reference,

e-Laws | Ontario.ca

www.ontario.ca