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History, Veterans, Remembrance, Honour and then there's the Bloc

  • Thread starter Thread starter Johnny Canuck
  • Start date Start date
Micheal,

I disagree. It does not take courage to privately deny a veteran (and senior citizen) a flag. He did not publically announce his position, but instead privately whispered it. Only when the Legion went public with the situation was his "stance" publically know. At that point his position was defended by his leader.

He stumbled into a position of principle by tripping over his arrogance. He is a coward. A coward that is backed into a corner, and instead of doing the right thing he is hiding from his responsibility under a guise of political principle. Otherwise, have we reached a point in this country where is behavior is considered leadership?

 
foerestedwarrior said:
Thats not the thing Michael, he refused to do it not because it isnt his job. He refused because he said it is not for the best interest of his party, but like i said, he is there to serve the people, not his agenda. If he had politley said that it is not his job, but here are some places that will do it, then it would be cool. He said what he said, he should be held responsible, kick him out of politics, if he cant honour the national flag, how can he be a MP?????

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why veterans need to get flags from their MP?  Didn't he have a good point about getting flags from Heritage instead?

If a veteran came up to me at the armoury and said "can I have a flag?" what do you think I would tell him?  "Sorry, sir, thank you for your service, but this is regimental clothing stores - we don't have any flags here.  Why don't you try...."
 
Bograt said:
Micheal,

I disagree. It does not take courage to privately deny a veteran (and senior citizen) a flag. He did not publically announce his position, but instead privately whispered it. Only when the Legion went public with the situation was his "stance" publically know. At that point his position was defended by his leader.

I would say doing it privately was the optimal way to go, to prevent embarrassment and avoid making a scene - or turning it into a political event.  So I guess we blame the Legion for that one.

He stumbled into a position of principle by tripping over his arrogance. He is a coward. A coward that is backed into a corner, and instead of doing the right thing he is hiding from his responsibility under a guise of political principle. Otherwise, have we reached a point in this country where is behavior is considered leadership?

Are you sure you understand what a coward is?  Cause I just don't see that here.
 
Michael Dorosh said:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain why veterans need to get flags from their MP?   Didn't he have a good point about getting flags from Heritage instead?

If a veteran came up to me at the armoury and said "can I have a flag?" what do you think I would tell him?   "Sorry, sir, thank you for your service, but this is regimental clothing stores - we don't have any flags here.   Why don't you try...."


ya but you wouldnt say im not giving you the flag because i am part of a political party that doesnt honor the national flag, and on those grounds refuse to give you one. Like i said, you are way off topic here, you are not grasping what has happened. I am not saying it is his or any other MP's job to do this, but his comments still stand.
 
Michael Dorosh said:
Are you sure you understand what a coward is?   Cause I just don't see that here.

I think I have a pretty good handle on what that word means. If someone shirks doing the right thing because it is too hard, I consider that cowardice. If someone doesn't take responsibility for their actions and fails to admit wrong. I consider that wrong. Don't turn this guy into a hero, or a man of principle. He is neither. To suggest otherwise diminishes all others- and in this case those who truly sacrificed.

 
From the article:
Johnny Canuck said:
However, he said he wouldn't have any problem giving out Quebec flags if someone asked him, even if he had to buy them himself.

So much for the "flag vendor" theory. Frankly, if a BQ offered me a Canadian Flag, I'd say "no thanks, keep it ... its yours anyway."
 
Johnny Canuck said:
However, he said he wouldn't have any problem giving out Quebec flags if someone asked him, even if he had to buy them himself.

Why would they want to put up a Quebec flag to remember the soldiers who died in war, they weren't fighting under the Quebec flag it was the Canadian flag and Quebec didn't even want to help out in WWII they didn't even want to help out in WWI.
 
I think he shoud be given the boot, this isnt just some mistake, he is backing his decission, so he means it, punt him.
 
mwhite said:
Why would they want to put up a Quebec flag to remember the soldiers who died in war, they weren't fighting under the Quebec flag it was the Canadian flag and Quebec didn't even want to help out in WWII they didn't even want to help out in WWI.

That is a very serious mischaracterization of those issues, and frankly I don't think its for you to say where the loyalties and motives of those who died as French Canadiens lie. Take on the BQ all you want, that's fair game ... but to write off the sacrifices of a province in the manner that you have lies at the heart of the problem in this country - genuine lack of respect and refusal to recognize the contributions made for the benefit of others.  And it wasn't the Canadian flag, it was the Dominion Flag. Frankly, I think very few of them fought for or under the flag, they just did a job that had to be done.
 
well said whiskey, though in the defense of mwhite, Quebec does have a very long history of refusing to participate in armed conflicts.
 
whiskey 601 said:
That is a very serious mischaracterization of those issues, and frankly I don't think its for you to say where the loyalties and motives of those who died as French Canadiens lie. Take on the BQ all you want, that's fair game ... but to write off the sacrifices of a province in the manner that you have lies at the heart of the problem in this country - genuine lack of respect and refusal to recognize the contributions made for the benefit of others.  And it wasn't the Canadian flag, it was the Dominion Flag. Frankly, I think very few of them fought for or under the flag, they just did a job that had to be done.

Obviously the french Canadians who served want the Canadian flag up or else this wouldn't be a big issue.  And one thing about me not having respect for those who fought is not true, everytime I see a veterans license plate I don't see that person as a normal person but as someone who helped extinguish the evils of the wolrd.
 
mike,i been giving your statements some thought.as you said the bloc has it own agenda for independance,i say give it to them.pay out there canada pension's for the amount of time before independace.take away all other federal support,let them look after themselves like they want. i want to see a united can.i am tired of them whinning and running our nation down.me personally i was't impressed with the rest of the country sucking there a** to stay but hey that's just bubba.the ques. was,is he a coward/flag supplier-no,what he and the bloc are to me is anticanadian..heres athought,alot of modern counrties had civil wars,could that happen between the bloc supporters and the rest of can.relax boys ol'bubba just thinkin out loud///// :cdn:
 
mwhite said:
Why would they want to put up a Quebec flag to remember the soldiers who died in war, they weren't fighting under the Quebec flag it was the Canadian flag and Quebec didn't even want to help out in WWII they didn't even want to help out in WWI.

Actually, it was the British flag, since we didn't have our own yet.   We started using the Red Ensign officially in 1944, however, but that still isn't a flag you can get from your local MP....
 
foerestedwarrior said:
well said whiskey, though in the defense of mwhite, Quebec does have a very long history of refusing to participate in armed conflicts.

Really?  Name one.
 
Michael Dorosh said:
Really?    Name one.

Wasn't there a big uproar in Quebec during both wars when the government wanted to send Quebecers overseas?
 
atticus said:
Wasn't there a big uproar in Quebec during both wars when the government wanted to send Quebecers overseas?
There was an uproar when the govt decided to go ahead with conscription. There wasa large number of French-Canadian units overseas in all conflicts from WW1. Ask the Vets from Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal who landed in Dieppe in 1942, or the Royal 22e Regt who did the entire Italian campaign then went on to Northwest Europe, or the Régiment de la Chaudière who landed on D-Day... and the list goes on.
Do not forget that less than half the population of Québec are separatists...
 
atticus said:
Wasn't there a big uproar in Quebec during both wars when the government wanted to send Quebecers overseas?

Yeah.  They also fielded four infantry battalions in NW Europe and Italy.  They were going to have an entire French speaking brigade but didn't have enough staff officers.

How is that the same as a blanket refusal to serve?  Thousands more served in French speaking regiments in Canada also on home defence duties.  

The Van Doos also served in WW I and Korea.  
 
Some good points by several people. On this topic re Mr Bellevance: PERHAPS he is courageous (hmm) for taking a stand for his beliefs, but  I doubt it. This "stand" could be extrapolated to say if he (and the Bloc) reject Canada then why is he, or the Bloc for that matter even involved in FEDERAL politics. This would seem to fly in the face of their so-called beliefs, ideals, priniciples...whatever..

Thus the Bloc has "selective" ideals..whie accepting Federal money in their paychecks. And I ask, upon retirement from federal politics, will he/they refuse the federal pension? I think not. on this subject read further below re Lincoln's speech of 1861
I would also insist that the oath he swore upon accepting the position was to serve all his constituents whether of his religion, colour, or political beliefs. and it seems to me failure to do so should be cause for removal, orat least sanction. Although this is not a major case, it does point out a clear desire on his part not to serve the obligations of his oath.

RE the flags: Federal constituency offices are not perhaps legally "obligated" to provide the national flag. However, certainly as a service to a recognized organization like the Legion, and in response to specific and reasonable requests  such as in this case a nice condition new flag for the Remembrance services,  such requests are readilyl and willingly granted. This is not the same as Joe Bloggins walking in off the street with such a request, and as such it is at least a case of pure "petty" behaviour.

As for separation itself, perhaps one should read the inauguration speech of Abe Lincoln in 1861 wherein he addressed the real threat of the destruction of the US through seccession of the Southern states. Most of his comments seem directly applicable to the Canada/Quebec issue.

some notes:

In speaking of a negotiated separation by the South (as the BQ/PQ wants from Canada) , Mr Lincoln said
.......â Å“Perpetuity is implied, if not expressed, in the fundamental law of all national governments. It is safe to assert that no government proper, ever had a provision in its organic law for its own termination.â ? .......

He goes on to say, that no â Å“stateâ ? (of the United States) can legally decide upon its own to break away and that no declarations by them are valid. Any act of aggression against the federal government is also considered as an â Å“insurrectionâ ?

He then asks,....... â Å“Is it true, then, that any right, plainly written in the Constitution, has been denied? I think not.â ?..... I mean when can any separatist here in Canada claim their civil rights to language, liberty, and freedom of expression, (or any other right) have been denied?

Mr Lincoln then wisely points out as is the case here, that a separation of Quebec, by its very premise could  result in a further separation or partition of a â Å“newâ ? nation of Quebec
........â Å“If a minority, in such case, will secede rather than acquiesce, they make a precedent which, in turn, will divide and ruin them; for a minority of their own will secede from them whenever a majority refuses to be controlled by such minority......


.....Sooooo, food for thought
 
This; however, unfortunite, is proof how rampant reginal disparity is in our nation.
 
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