• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

HMCS Chicoutimi {MERGED}

I just realized I hadn't posted my condolences.   :-[

Rest in peace Lt. Saunders.

And to all those serving, my personal thanks and gratitude.

Your sacrifices too often go unrecognized....



Matthew.   :salute:   :cdn:
 
Hi all:
My condolences too for Lt Saunders. I'm glad that teh crew is safe and sound today.
I realy really hope that the disaster at the Chicoutimi will wake us up (I mean teh average Canadian) and require that the polictians allow the military to buy the proper equipment it needs. Can you imagine the outcry if it had been a constrction company?

xavier
 
Quoting an unnamed source,.......of course ::)
  http://www.canada.com/components/printstory/printstory4.aspx?id=79f3aff7-45cc-4106-86e4-e8c6c3349f4e
 
Sub crew to blame for lethal fire
Report: Seawater in battery compartment may have caused short circuit
 
Sutton Eaves
The Ottawa Citizen


November 7, 2004


A fire on board a Canadian submarine that killed one of its crew was a result of human error, a British newspaper reported today.

Quoting an unnamed source, London's Mail on Sunday said initial findings of the inquiry into the tragedy show crew members left open hatches as HMCS Chicoutimi sailed on the surface in a raging North Atlantic storm. That meant seawater flooded into the sub's battery compartment, causing short circuits and an electrical fire.

"This looks like a simple case of a drill not being carried out. Had a hatch at the bottom of the conning tower been closed, the water would never have got inside," an unnamed British military source told the Mail.

He was referring to the Oct. 5 fire aboard the Chicoutimi that killed 32-year-old naval Lieut. Chris Saunders, injured two others and crippled the British-built submarine off the coast of Ireland.

Recent media reports quote crew members saying the sub's hatches were open when it was struck by a massive wave, allowing water to spill into the control room below.

An electrical fire sparked by the onset of water reportedly raced along the Chicoutimi's inside walls while crew members struggled to mop up the flood.

"It's a mystery as to why the submarine was on the surface," the Mail quoted the source as saying.

"She should have been underwater in those conditions. It was very rough weather."

Last month, some members of the same crew denied the fire was a result of "human error."

Earlier, other crew members had told the media it wasn't uncommon to have the conning hatches open while cruising in rough water.

A spokesman for the navy's board of inquiry investigating the fire said reports of open hatches are unconfirmed.

"There are a lot of theories and a lot of speculation but what the board of inquiry is doing is very much still in the fact-finding phase of its investigation," Lt.-Cmdr. Albert Wong told the Citizen last night. "It's premature to come to a conclusion at this point."

The board is expected to release its report by the end of the month once hearings, held in Scotland and now Halifax, are finished.

The proceedings are being held behind closed doors, despite appeals from Canadian media outlets to have the inquiry opened to the public.

A federal court justice ruled yesterday that the investigation will continue despite a request to have it halted while media outlets petition the courts for public access.

"As far as I am concerned, the operation of the navy is at stake," Federal Court Justice Sean Harrington ruled after a four-hour teleconference.

"That is the prime function, and that has to take precedence over the charter of rights of the press."

The CBC and two Halifax newspapers requested a cease in proceedings after the inquiry president, Commodore Dan Murphy, refused the media access to the investigation.

Warning that public access would cause delays, Judge Harrington wrote in a letter to the news organizations: "I must be mindful of the release of information that could compromise privacy, security, operational and international relations requirements."

The board has released three findings of its investigation so far. It revealed there was an ingress of water into the submarine, the fire was electrical, and there was an electrical arc, which occurs when a strong current jumps a gap in a circuit.

Lt.-Cmdr. Wong emphasized that the board has not made any connection between these three facts.

While the final report is expected by Nov. 30, the board can appeal to the chief of maritime staff to have that deadline extended.

"At this stage, we are still moving towards the 30th. But it's ambitious. There are a lot of things to do," said Lt.-Cmdr. Wong.


 
Anyone who knows subs or served on subs will tell you that they dont like to ride out a storm on the surface. So i doubt it that a crewmember left the hatch open.
 
The entire article is utter nonsense. A little research on the web and that reporter would not have dared to write that garbage. To put the information publically available in perspective:

1. If the hatch to the   battery compartment (which is under 2 deck)   was open you would not be getting a fire 90 minutes later in the captains cabin on 1 deck. You would have about 9 seconds from the salt water entering the battery compartment to massive shorts, fires and chlorine gas IN the battery compartment.

2. The Chicoutimi was running on the surface opened up. That means the conning tower hatches were open to allow air to get to the engine room for the diesels. This is SOP. If the weather really gets rough then the conning tower hatches are shut and air is sucked in through the snort induction system. (NOT the snorkel. Snorkel is German. The Royal Navy does not use German terminology. They have a thing about that.)

If you look at the Victoria internal views on the forces website you can see how the conning tower is designed as a series of baffles to prevent water and seaspray from getting sucked down the tower. There are a number of very good technical and operational reasons for running opened up. Getting an ingress of sea water down the tower is a severe PITA but it happens. Even in decent weather a rogue wave can send a shower down the tower. It is not human error.

3. It was fall in the North Atlantic. The weather conditions were normal for fall in the North Atlantic. A gale like that is more common than good weather in that area. The conditions were nowhere near bad enough to alter the schedule and dive early. You might as well suggest the Navy shut down operations from September to June.

4. The Chicoutimi had not reached her dive area. You do not alter schedules and dive early lightly. Especially   when you are in some of the busiest sea lanes in the world. It is possible Chicoutimi was in a hurry to get clear of the sea lanes and get to her dive position.

Whoever that source is, (if he exists) he is not a submariner, I doubt he is even in the Navy. More likely a PR jerk for the British shipbuilding industry banking on the technical illiteracy of the reporter.
 
Good post buckahed.  You are confirming a few things that I had suspected. I suggest we let the BOI do it's and not rely too much on the news media's "guesses" about what happened.
 
I don't even want to pretend that I know what I'm talking about, because I don't know a thing about subs, but I do know a bit about electricity.  So I'm wondering, exactly how much water are they talking about?  And what was it that was supposed to arc?  Water would have shorted somethin out, arcing occurs through air.  Why would you have two conductors with enough voltage betwween the two of them to arc, close enough together to cause them to arc?  and why would you design an electrical system on a submarine that would have catastrophic consequences if it got wet?  To short something out using water you would have to completely submerge it in water.  Unless you had just the right conditions that a puddle of water that was in contact with one conductor, and a second pool of water on the second conductor just happen to pool close enough together to cause an arc between the pools.  Which happens very frequently i know on a sub with seawater splashing in, during rough seas on the atlantic.  (being sarcastic of course).
 
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac121/soca/code.htm

If I have done this right, the PC version of the code is here.

lfejoel25,

The subs use high voltage, very high amperage DC in very cramped quarters. The equipment is supposed to be rated to MilSpec standards for extreme harsh environment. The inquiry has called in experts in electrical wiring and insulation according to some news reports.

 
buckahed said:
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ac121/soca/code.htm

If I have done this right, the PC version of the code is here.

Check- I googled it right after I posted and found it first shot.  Ahhh, the memories...
 
Politics stalled sub deal, Collenette says

Three-year delay by Chrétien allowed vessels to rust, corrode, committee told

By JEFF SALLOT
Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - Page A6 

OTTAWA -- Politics stalled the purchase of submarines for the Canadian navy by three years, a period of time that allowed the vessels to rust and corrode, former defence minister David Collenette says.

The Liberal cabinet agreed in principle to buy the four used subs from the British in 1994, but then-prime-minister Jean Chrétien waited another three years to sign the $800-million deal, Mr. Collenette told the House defence committee yesterday.

Mr. Chrétien worried about public reaction to big purchases of military equipment at the same time as the government was cutting health care and other social programs, he said. "He thought about it for three years."

The defence committee is investigating the submarine deal after the fatal fire aboard one of the boats, HMCS Chicoutimi, two months ago.

A separate investigation by a naval board of inquiry has yet to determine what caused the fire aboard the ship that resulted in the death of one submariner and the injury of several others.

But previous witnesses at the House committee have testified that Chicoutimi -- the former Royal Navy ship Upholder -- suffered damage from neglect and lack of maintenance while it was out of service and tied up for years in a Scottish port.

Submarines are sensitive pieces of equipment and the effects of salt water and damp air may have caused damage, Mr. Collenette said.

"They were sitting there in a climate that was not particularly hospitable. They were not like airplanes sitting in a desert where they can easily be reactivated."

"It's not surprising" that mechanical problems have developed with the submarines, given the length of time they sat idle, he said.

The former minister's testimony points to the need to call Mr. Chrétien to testify, some opposition members of the committee said.

Mr. Collenette, who was defence minister from 1993 to 1996, said he was persuaded by defence officials early on that the navy needed to replace its three older submarines, the Oberon class subs. By 1993 "the Oberons were a danger to their crews" because of their age, he said.

In opposition, the Liberals had campaigned on a platform that promised cuts to military spending.

Thus, it was politically difficult to justify the purchase of military equipment no matter how good a deal the British were offering on the used subs, Mr. Collenette said.

The Chrétien government also split the purchases of other military equipment, such as helicopters and armoured vehicles, to spread the acquisitions over a longer period because of political considerations, Mr. Collenette told the committee.

Politics is not just about leading, Mr. Collenette told reporters later. Politics is also about "bringing the public along with you. And there was a feeling the public wouldn't really understand why we were spending so much money on hard-core military equipment. . . . So we waited until the situation was a little better."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20041214/SUBMARINES14/TPNational/Canada
 
I was browsing through some news sites anc came across this, I find it very peculiar that we would be taking possession of a broken ship.  Why wouldn't we just make the brits fix it rather then ship it back to Canada and then worry about fixing it here?

Crippled Canadian submarine loaded onto transport ship for voyage home

1 hour, 33 minutes ago


HALIFAX (CP) - A crippled Canadian submarine was loaded Friday onto a transport ship that's expected to carry it home.



Tugboats pulled HMCS Chicoutimi alongside the Norwegian sealift vessel at the Royal Navy base in Faslane, Scotland, said Canada's Defence Department.

Department spokesman Jeremy Sales said the transport ship then partially submerged to allow the submarine to be brought on board.

"The Chicoutimi is now in the confines of the ship," Sales said.

"It's a complicated process before the ship is ready to sail, but she has been embarked."

The warship had to be towed back to Scotland in October after an electrical fire broke out during its maiden voyage under the Canadian flag.

The blaze left the vessel stranded northwest of Ireland and killed one crew member.

Earlier this week, high winds and fog in Scotland delayed the transfer to the transport vessel.

Sales said the weather had improved substantially by Friday morning.

He added the weather wasn't as much of a factor once the submarine was safely aboard the transport ship.

The ship was expected to depart for Halifax some time Sunday, a journey that should take 12 to 14 days.

The sealift is expected to cost Ottawa $2.7 million.

Here's the link:  http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm.../cpress/20050107/ca_pr_on_na/submarine_return

Typical I suppose... I just don't see the point of taking possesion of a broken piece of kit.... that would be like signing for a coyote with a broken surveillance suite.  And by no means am I trying to make light of the situation that happened aboard the above submarine,  I find it tragic that Canada is still interested in this boat.

 
I was browsing through some news sites anc came across this, I find it very peculiar that we would be taking possession of a broken ship.  Why wouldn't we just make the brits fix it rather then ship it back to Canada and then worry about fixing it here?

1. Because it is our submarine, not the Royal Navy's.  Hence the 'C' in HMCS...

Typical I suppose... I just don't see the point of taking possesion of a broken piece of kit.... that would be like signing for a coyote with a broken surveillance suite.  And by no means am I trying to make light of the situation that happened aboard the above submarine,  I find it tragic that Canada is still interested in this boat.

2. See point number 1 above.  And I can assure you that our Navy is very much interested in these submarines for alot of good reasons that have been covered in any number of other topics on this forum.  I don't want to have to keep going over the same ground time and time again... 
 
Maybe they want another sub to add to the fleet at west edmonton mall?  :D
(Sorry, just trying to brighten a gloomy story, no offence intended).
 
LCISTech227 said:
Why wouldn't we just make the brits fix it rather then ship it back to Canada and then worry about fixing it here?

Because they did such a bang-up job the first time around... :D   Serisously though, the sub is ours now, as
SeaKingTacco pointed out. You take care of your own kit if you want any sort of respect.

I find it tragic that Canada is still interested in this boat.

It's not a choice of this boat or another one. It's a choice of having all four or only three. I'd find it tragic if Canada wasn't interested. The other three seem to be doing quite well from what I've heard, so why wouldn't we want another one? If it were a complete write-off I would be with you, but why on earth would you toss something as useful (and expensive) as a sub when it can be repaired?
 
Well they are sort of ours. We can't modify them or manufacture parts for them as we only lease them. If we could have bought them they all would have been barged to Canada to be canadianized but alas not they way things happened.
 
Well they are sort of ours. We can't modify them or manufacture parts for them as we only lease them

And where did you get that info...fact is we have been making and buying parts for them since we bought them.
 
The way I understood it the brits were responsible for supplying us with a working boat... as it isn't a working boat why do we have to take care of it?  It be like me buying a car, driving it off the lot and blowing the engine, and them telling me of well it's yours now.  As if.
 
Well they are sort of ours. We can't modify them or manufacture parts for them as we only lease them. If we could have bought them they all would have been barged to Canada to be canadianized but alas not they way things happened

Having been on HMCS WINDSOR and having sailed in company with HMCS VICTORIA, I can assure you that the submarines have been modified with our fire control system and our comms systems, just to give you two examples.   My understanding of the whole process is that the mods were done in the UK and not in Canada because we didn't have the in-house expertise at the time (the jump from O-boat technology to the Type 2400s was about like going from flying an F-86 sabre to an F-18 in one go.   Or Shermans to Leopards, to provide an Army example.)   We have now gained much of that expertise.   I also suspect that BAE is about to get busy with the ASTUTE class SSNs and wants us out of the way (I stand to be corrected on this point).

The way I understood it the brits were responsible for supplying us with a working boat... as it isn't a working boat why do we have to take care of it?   It be like me buying a car, driving it off the lot and blowing the engine, and them telling me of well it's yours now.   As if.

We were supplied with a working boat.   It passed sea trials, was accepted by Canada and commissioned as Canadian warship. The used car anology is over-used and bad for alot of reasons. Buying complex military equipment is never like buying a car.   There are no consumer protection laws for countries.   There are sometimes warranty periods, but usually with limits.   Sometimes, when you buy a complex piece of kit (and the 4 submarines we now have are far and away the most complex equipment ever owned by the CF), bad and unexpected things happen.   Grown-up sovereign nations suck it up, learn lessons and make improvements.   Let's quit whining and move on- it is unbecoming and it wastes energy.
 
Back
Top