HMCS Chicoutimi {MERGED}

[Ex-Dragoon]

Good question Lowrider but I think mainly itsbecause we have never have had a submarine (military) building industry and have zero experience in it. Witness what the Australians have gone through and I think you would have seen the same things happen here, not to mention zero foreign sales for the Collins as well.

 

[PeAcH]

there are no words to describe wat i am thinkin 
RIP

 

[Goober]

RIP 

My thoughts and prayers go out to the family, and friends of Lieut. Chris Saunders. I also hope the others who were injured have a speedy recovery.

 

[Guardian]

Is there any good reason why we couldn't have built our own submarines?I can't see any good reason to go buy second hand subs when they could have been built in Canadian shipyards.Even if it costs more to do so,the economic spinoffs would make up for it.

This logic has wasted billions of dollars in the past. "Economic spinoffs" do help the economy, it's true, BUT they don't make for effective defence spending. There are two primary reasons:

1. We wind up, more often than not, paying a premium to have things built in Canada. I offer the $80,000 Iltis for an example (we could have had German-built ones for something like $25,000, or so I read somewhere). The added cost comes because often a foreign company will have to start a Canadian subsidiary, or re-tool a Canadian plant, or charge the government more for the inconvenience of having to include an "offset package." Also, developing made-in-Canada kit from scratch means we spend millions / billions in R&D for something that may / may not be better than a design that's already been developed elsewhere.

2. Often, for political reasons, a Canadian product that's lower quality or more expensive may be purchased over a better foreign product. I offer the LSVW, the Ross Rifle, the Oliver webbing.... Just because it's Canadian doesn't mean it's quality.

Now, if the government wants to keep the funds in Canada and buy Canadian, that may be a valid decision. However, DND shouldn't have to subsidize regional development. If we must pay a premium to "buy Canadian," the extra money should come from Industry Canada, or one of the regional development agencies. Why should our defence dollars - as scarce as they are - be used to create jobs in civilian industry? Use other government money for that. If we actually spent defence dollars on DEFENCE procurement and not regional development, we'd more closely resemble Australia and the Netherlands in spending efficiency (the Dutch spend maybe $8 billion or so on defence - we spend $12b - and they have MLRS, Leopard IIs, Apache attack helicopters, infantry fighting vehicles, almost as many frigates as we do, MORE diesel subs, an amphibious assault ship complete with landing craft and a marine corps, airborne units, etc.......)

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

My condolences, particularly to his family and fellow sailors.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Odd question but what do they eat when there is no power.  Do they have IMP's or would they eat fruits/ verg, dried meats?

 

[xenomfba]

This thread is getting ridiculous.   A good lot of you are just as bad as the baboons on the Parliament Floor.   crap happens; if a vehicle rolls, a ship catches fire, or a plane crashes, culpability does not automatically fall upon the government of the day.   Quit trying to make a crap-storm from something which we have very little knowledge of right now.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to post my opinion on a public message board devoted to my profession. Instead of posting an irrelevant "RIP" message that no one affected will ever see, I decided to express my anger. I'm not in the Navy and as such can admit my knowledge of submarine fires is limited, but everyone knows this isn't the first thing to go wrong with our $1,000,000,000 acquisition. The difference is that someone died this time.

You're right, crap happens. But if crap happens again and again until someone dies, there's something wrong.

 

[NavyGrunt]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to post my opinion on a public message board devoted to my profession. Instead of posting an irrelevant "RIP" message that no one affected will ever see, I decided to express my anger. I'm not in the Navy and as such can admit my knowledge of submarine fires is limited, but everyone knows this isn't the first thing to go wrong with our $1,000,000,000 acquisition. The difference is that someone died this time.

You're right, crap happens. But if crap happens again and again until someone dies, there's something wrong.

This might be the most inappropriate post of all time. This is a thread where we are expressing our condolences. This is for reflection and expressing solidarity. Hardly irrelevant. Start another thread for your anger. Infanteer I think you'd be "spot on" if you deleted all these excess posts

 

[Inch]

Guardian, well put, especially about Industry Canada propping up companies instead of us. I was going to reply along the same lines but you beat me to it. Just to add a bit.....

The amount of stuff we buy is also a determining factor, there is no company in the world that will set up shop here just to build 4 subs, or 28 helicopters. The cost of infrastructure alone would be in the millions if not billions, that's an awful lot of wasted money to build 4 subs every 20 years. Compare this to the Americans and their 600 ship navy (I'm not sure it's that big anymore but in the 80's I know it was), there is a continual need for ship building and refit. We just don't have the same demand nor the money to support that kind of industry. The same goes for most of our other equipment, the Americans buy 1000 F-18's, we buy 122 CF-18's, they buy 1000+ M1's, we buy a little over 100 tanks.

I'm not saying I'm against Canadian made but as Guardian said, Canadian made doesn't always mean it's the best.

Cheers

 

[ackland]

I second that! 

 

[Scott]

ReeeHhheeeeHHHEEAAALLLYY,



Well, not to say that our submariners aren't trained well enough to handle the problem, and of course a fire on a SUBMARINE is more dangerous even than on a surface ship. But still, howcome they couldn't put out the fire if it started in an electrical panel? I suppose it's too early to speculate at anything but it's just sort of surprising it could be put of of commission by a fire so quickly and easily...

What the heck would happen if they were actually defending our borders against an enemy naval force? They would be sitting ducks! They'd probably already be hit!... This sub, as was mentioned also, hasn't been "modernized" yet so the equipment on board was probably not in good/great service.

I just hope those folks are okay and that they get on solid land ASAP! Glad it happened beside THE Commonwealth nation too...

Joe

The part about breaking down while at war has been addressed.

Now, do you have any training/experience with electrical fires? If you did then you'd know that they can be the most nasty of fires to combat. What do you put on them? How do you de-energize the source? How do you protect yourself against the noxious fumes? All of these questions must be addressed before you put the wet stuff on the red stuff.

Plastics, any firefighters enemy. Ask any "old" hand on a fire department what the difference is today from 20 years ago and they will almost always say that it's plastics. Deadly combinations of chemicals are put together to create these compounds. They're safe, until they burn. The couch that you probably have sitting in your living room, if it were to catch fire, just the couch, and the room was left unventilated and you had no respiratory protection, you could expect about two breaths of that smoke and you'd never have a worry again.

I am not familiar with the makeup/composition of our subs. I don't know the training regime that submariners are put through in order to deal with these situations (Ex Dragoon, can you shed some light here? Do they go through the DCS like most Naval pers?) SO.....I'll keep it shut when it comes to that. What I can say, from experience is that smoke inhalation is one silent yet swift kick in the ass. It takes you down good style and sometimes you don't know that it's an issue until much later. Just trying to help with some facts.

 

[Infanteer]

I'm not in the Navy and as such can admit my knowledge of submarine fires is limited

That about sums thing up; why don't you just spare us the rant and let the facts do the talking.

Anyways, enough of this for now.  Say your peace and move on.

 

[1feral1]

Since last night AEST, this incident been all over the news here, and mentioned is the loss on one, and another in critical condition.

As of just now, they say conditions are very rough in the northern Atlantic.

regards,

Wes

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

There is a time and place for everything and throwing out blame isn't suited for this particular thread.

 

[the 48th regulator]

here here I agree,

Start another thread if you want to talk about blood on anyones hands.  

Honor a fallen Brother.

tess

 

[xenomfba]

This is a thread where we are expressing our condolences.

Expressing your condolences to who? Some 17-year old weekend warrior from Saskatchewan? I doubt you'd walk up to a random person on the street and say "I'm so sorry about Lt. Saunders." If you sincerely want to try and make this horrible event easier for Gwen Saunders and her two children, send them flowers or a card with your condolences. I'm sure the MFRC would be glad to help you out with that. However, if you want to post a quick 15-second message on an anonymous message board just to make yourself feel better, then keep doing what you're doing.

Why am I the only one that sees something wrong with this?

 

[jfladeroute]

Why am I the only one that sees something wrong with this?

I don't know why. I had two civilians, in separate conversations, mention to me today how sorry they were about Lt. Saunders.  I didn't find it surprising, and I expressed my appreciation of their sentiment. Were they wrong? I don't believe so, and I'm not sure why you would find fault. 

" Each man's death diminishes me, For I am involved in mankind."

 

[Scott]

Expressing your condolences to who? Some 17-year old weekend warrior from Saskatchewan? I doubt you'd walk up to a random person on the street and say "I'm so sorry about Lt. Saunders." If you sincerely want to try and make this horrible event easier for Gwen Saunders and her two children, send them flowers or a card with your condolences. I'm sure the MFRC would be glad to help you out with that. However, if you want to post a quick 15-second message on an anonymous message board just to make yourself feel better, then keep doing what you're doing.

Why am I the only one that sees something wrong with this?

xenomfba, pretty ignorant... if people choose to post condolances here then that is their choice to make and it is not your place to belittle them for it. Accept the fact that we are not discussing blame in this thread at this time and move on.

 

[meni0n]

Xeno, why don't you send a memo up the chain and tell  the CDS how exactly he should spend the money eh.

 

[Infanteer]

Obviously, this thread has outlived it's purpose.