How to create insurgents
- Thread starter Spr.Earl
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F.U.B.A.R. II
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Wesley, how do you call a redneck in Australia?
4
48Highlander
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No offense Wes, but:
A) You really are bieng excessively rude with very little cause, and
B) The man has a point. I mean, yes, there is no excuse for the type of fanaticism displayed by those groups, however, indiscriminate violence will only create more of them rather than less. We need to fight terrorism, yes, and that certainly does involve killing people and blowing shit up. However, it also involves winning over those who haven't turned into fanatics quite yet. You can either help them rebuild a school and win them over to your side, or blow up their homes and send 'em over to the other side. I think that's what Smoothbore was getting at. And it's something you have to agree with if you've studied military history spaning the last few decades. The old "Give us your hearts and minds or we'll burn your goddamn huts down" mindset didn't work in Vietnam, it's not working in Palestine, and it would be an even bigger disaster in the rest of the Middle East.
A) You really are bieng excessively rude with very little cause, and
B) The man has a point. I mean, yes, there is no excuse for the type of fanaticism displayed by those groups, however, indiscriminate violence will only create more of them rather than less. We need to fight terrorism, yes, and that certainly does involve killing people and blowing shit up. However, it also involves winning over those who haven't turned into fanatics quite yet. You can either help them rebuild a school and win them over to your side, or blow up their homes and send 'em over to the other side. I think that's what Smoothbore was getting at. And it's something you have to agree with if you've studied military history spaning the last few decades. The old "Give us your hearts and minds or we'll burn your goddamn huts down" mindset didn't work in Vietnam, it's not working in Palestine, and it would be an even bigger disaster in the rest of the Middle East.
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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absent_element said:
I don't see "us" as having made any mistakes, if you mean Canada. I think once again we are victims of aggression and certainly not instigators. Perhaps our only mistake has been to be too trusting of others.
J
jrhume
Guest
Smoothbore and 48Highlander,
You both talk of 'excessive violence' and 'indiscriminate violence' as if US forces were routinely using weapons in a mindless manner. I suggest you both quit reading leftist garbage on the subject and go check out actual accounts from reporters who are on the scene. Check out Robert D. Kaplan's article in opinionjournal.com for May 31. He will have a longer article in the Atlantic Monthly for July/August. Mr. Kaplan was with the Marines in Fallujah. Also read Brendan Minitner, opinionjournal.com for June 1.
Then do a little checking in SpiritofAmerica.net to see what sort of support US troops are seeking in helping the people of Afghanistan and Iraq. Do some research into the US military's large and small projects in rebuilding Iraq.
The aftermath of any war is confused and violent. Iraq is no exception. Mistakes have been made -- and corrected -- but don't expect to see much mainstream reporting on the corrections. If you want to get closer to the truth, you have to go beyond the usual media outlets.
Friendly advice -- if you find yourself repeating what some one else told you, it's probably wrong. Check it out for yourself.
You both talk of 'excessive violence' and 'indiscriminate violence' as if US forces were routinely using weapons in a mindless manner. I suggest you both quit reading leftist garbage on the subject and go check out actual accounts from reporters who are on the scene. Check out Robert D. Kaplan's article in opinionjournal.com for May 31. He will have a longer article in the Atlantic Monthly for July/August. Mr. Kaplan was with the Marines in Fallujah. Also read Brendan Minitner, opinionjournal.com for June 1.
Then do a little checking in SpiritofAmerica.net to see what sort of support US troops are seeking in helping the people of Afghanistan and Iraq. Do some research into the US military's large and small projects in rebuilding Iraq.
The aftermath of any war is confused and violent. Iraq is no exception. Mistakes have been made -- and corrected -- but don't expect to see much mainstream reporting on the corrections. If you want to get closer to the truth, you have to go beyond the usual media outlets.
Friendly advice -- if you find yourself repeating what some one else told you, it's probably wrong. Check it out for yourself.
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Um, I hate to sound like a CIMIC weenie, but ... "Give us your hearts and minds or we'll burn your goddamn huts down" is so wrong it isn't even on target (and, no - I'm not suggesting you're a proponent of it, I'm just saying it's so wrong I couldn't let it go without commenting).
The hearts and minds thing is best done when it's "positive only" (i.e. the bad part is best left unsaid, or even better - when the bad part becomes the sole domain of the bad guys ... that's when you really start winning this battle, or even the war ...).
Kinda like referees in hockey - with one notable exception, they don't throw punches (i.e. they just step in when a fight gets ugly and protect the guy that's losing - most players respect that ... and appreciate it).
And, the local populace aren't stupid - they eventually recognise that only the bad guys are burning down schools, murdering to intimidate, etc. and that the good guys are only killing terrorists/guerillas.
Okay - I'll shut up now (it was a kneejerk thing, but I had to do it ... the voices made me ...)
The hearts and minds thing is best done when it's "positive only" (i.e. the bad part is best left unsaid, or even better - when the bad part becomes the sole domain of the bad guys ... that's when you really start winning this battle, or even the war ...).
Kinda like referees in hockey - with one notable exception, they don't throw punches (i.e. they just step in when a fight gets ugly and protect the guy that's losing - most players respect that ... and appreciate it).
And, the local populace aren't stupid - they eventually recognise that only the bad guys are burning down schools, murdering to intimidate, etc. and that the good guys are only killing terrorists/guerillas.
Okay - I'll shut up now (it was a kneejerk thing, but I had to do it ... the voices made me ...)
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:gunner: I have always preferred that famous quote "when you got 'em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow" :gunner:
For those who constantly give into pressure from the left, the snivel libertarians, bleeding hearts, and the do gooders, all this does is buy the EN time, and he laughs at us all, as we have let him into our house, and he pissses in the corner of your living rooms. He has no respect for us, our families, our culture, and our way of life, but sees the vastness and riches of western lands such as Canada, USA and Australia as a greener place to start his colonisation, and if anyone is thick enough to believe otherwise, you better take a long look thru the big picture of what really happening.
I am not saying wipe out a culture, just wipe out (with extreme prejudice) the radical fundimental extreme side of islam. Full stop!
I reckon one must have to have a wee bit of fear (and respect for todays terrorist) to taste to understand this extreme islamic threat, rather instead of trying to be politically correct by not offending anyone. Those days are about to abruptly end when Canada, or Australia (or any other westrern nation) has its first major attack, and don't get me wrong, it will come. I wish I was wrong, but our turn in the terror 'wheel of fortune' will arrive, sooner than later.
We gotta get tough now, taking the fight to the EN in his shtyeland before it get s on our shores, but we know its here, so tougher laws taking away a few civil rights aint gonna hurt any of us law abiding 'western animals' (quote from an islamic terr caught in Sydney). I would rather be safe than dead, or worse having my family murdered by a buch of insane extremists who value DEATH as much as you and I value our lives and the lives of our children.
As for attitudes like Smooth, FUBAR II and 48, I find that generally weak, and its that type of thought, which these terrs thrive on, and the complacency you both have is generic to the cause loss of life (here on our shores).
One more day of doing nothing, is one ore day he has over us. Don't be afraid to stand your ground, and speak out. be alert, not inert.
Time to take the gloves off. When diplomacy fails PHUCK EM! Dont stop til you're finished. Pound em hard, show no mercy. No quarter drawn or given. This war has not even begun yet.
For the Spanish kids on the train, remember. For the unaccompanied kids on those flights on the S11 attacks, remember. For the kids with their mums and dads who were vapourised in the Sari nightclub, remember. The next time, it might be in your town. Remember that!
dont be so phucking blind!
We are ready here, and take the threat as real is it comes as we have already been blooded.
Cheers,
Wes
For those who constantly give into pressure from the left, the snivel libertarians, bleeding hearts, and the do gooders, all this does is buy the EN time, and he laughs at us all, as we have let him into our house, and he pissses in the corner of your living rooms. He has no respect for us, our families, our culture, and our way of life, but sees the vastness and riches of western lands such as Canada, USA and Australia as a greener place to start his colonisation, and if anyone is thick enough to believe otherwise, you better take a long look thru the big picture of what really happening.
I am not saying wipe out a culture, just wipe out (with extreme prejudice) the radical fundimental extreme side of islam. Full stop!
I reckon one must have to have a wee bit of fear (and respect for todays terrorist) to taste to understand this extreme islamic threat, rather instead of trying to be politically correct by not offending anyone. Those days are about to abruptly end when Canada, or Australia (or any other westrern nation) has its first major attack, and don't get me wrong, it will come. I wish I was wrong, but our turn in the terror 'wheel of fortune' will arrive, sooner than later.
We gotta get tough now, taking the fight to the EN in his shtyeland before it get s on our shores, but we know its here, so tougher laws taking away a few civil rights aint gonna hurt any of us law abiding 'western animals' (quote from an islamic terr caught in Sydney). I would rather be safe than dead, or worse having my family murdered by a buch of insane extremists who value DEATH as much as you and I value our lives and the lives of our children.
As for attitudes like Smooth, FUBAR II and 48, I find that generally weak, and its that type of thought, which these terrs thrive on, and the complacency you both have is generic to the cause loss of life (here on our shores).
One more day of doing nothing, is one ore day he has over us. Don't be afraid to stand your ground, and speak out. be alert, not inert.
Time to take the gloves off. When diplomacy fails PHUCK EM! Dont stop til you're finished. Pound em hard, show no mercy. No quarter drawn or given. This war has not even begun yet.
For the Spanish kids on the train, remember. For the unaccompanied kids on those flights on the S11 attacks, remember. For the kids with their mums and dads who were vapourised in the Sari nightclub, remember. The next time, it might be in your town. Remember that!
dont be so phucking blind!
We are ready here, and take the threat as real is it comes as we have already been blooded.
Cheers,
Wes
F
F.U.B.A.R. II
Guest
You are paranoid, you're probably the type of person that has a nuclear bunker in your basement and forces your children to do chemical attack drills 4 times a day.
Your behaviour resembles the attitude of terrorists themselves, ideological (second wave of colonisation...pff), strongly indoctrinated, naive and ignorant. What makes you believe that by killing some militants you will defeat them, you will just the induce the rest of the arab world to become radical. Show of force tactics are useless, they are not afraid of us, we are terrified of them (as you are an excellent example). Besides they are very clever by adopting guerilla tactics, its just like when the British army and French armies faced native americans in the 18th century. The Europeans all dressed up in their bright red and blue uniforms were shocked when indians would attack like partisans and not line up nicley in rows and bright uniforms to make it easier to shoot them.
You are a dinosuar form the Vietnam era that should be extinct. You believe that war is a glorious affair between men, you fight for God, the Queen and...oh yeah Freedom! (btw how the phuck can you save your freedom by shooting some pathetic and poor goat herders?)
Your behaviour resembles the attitude of terrorists themselves, ideological (second wave of colonisation...pff), strongly indoctrinated, naive and ignorant. What makes you believe that by killing some militants you will defeat them, you will just the induce the rest of the arab world to become radical. Show of force tactics are useless, they are not afraid of us, we are terrified of them (as you are an excellent example). Besides they are very clever by adopting guerilla tactics, its just like when the British army and French armies faced native americans in the 18th century. The Europeans all dressed up in their bright red and blue uniforms were shocked when indians would attack like partisans and not line up nicley in rows and bright uniforms to make it easier to shoot them.
You are a dinosuar form the Vietnam era that should be extinct. You believe that war is a glorious affair between men, you fight for God, the Queen and...oh yeah Freedom! (btw how the phuck can you save your freedom by shooting some pathetic and poor goat herders?)
F
Figure11
Guest
FUBAR- how would you recommend that we negotiate some form of peaceful co-existence with a group capable of flying a 'plane full of people into a skyscraper?
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Wes,
Keep talking like that and maybe eventually you'll convince these monkeys that this is not an easy task that we have facing us. There have been some good points brought up by both sides of this.
To the three stooges,
Do you think the filthy little terrorists are having debates right now on the moral justification of their actions? Do you think that they have people wringing their hands in sorrow for cutting some saps head off for the Internet? Maybe they went to confession this morning and reneged on their pledge to kill any Christian or Jew wherever they find them. Perhaps you might see them as freedom fighters doing what any one of us would do if we were invaded by a foreign army. Open your eyes you damned fools! What wrong did we do to Muslims that some lunatic fringe element would take up their cause and attack civilian targets such as NY, Madrid, NY again in 2001, Kenya, Pakistan, Bali and Jerusalem? Shall I keep going? This is not some normal clearly defined war that both sides can agree to the pre established LOAC whereby we will both be ensured that captured prisoners will be treated ethically, temporary cease fires to evacuate wounded combatants, not engaging medical personnel and minimizing collateral damage. This is a war to the finish for them and so it should be for us.
As for creating insurgents, well I think that they are creating their own insurgents. Every part of their lives is strictly controlled. The leaders of the terrorist groups are not themselves going out on these attacks. They are recruiting some 16yr old with a tapeworm and a runny nose. They are not sending out the rich intelligentsia out to do battle with us as they have the means to see both sides of this issue therefore are much more informed. No, they are recruiting the poorest most uneducated as they have the least to lose, are most influenced by the strictly controlled media and traditionally will follow what their mullahs tell them to. This is who we are fighting against, a generation of older more influential men sending of their children, the flower of their culture off to do battle against tanks. We will stumble and make some mistakes, some we will gloss over and others will be blown far out of proportion (prisoner scandal and the media being mostly the only ones "outraged"). Remember this, we suffered setback after setback in WW1 and WW2. We came but a battle or two from losing both of those. Somehow, thanks to good leadership and realistic thinking and actions by people like us we won. Us, the good guys.
Keep talking like that and maybe eventually you'll convince these monkeys that this is not an easy task that we have facing us. There have been some good points brought up by both sides of this.
To the three stooges,
Do you think the filthy little terrorists are having debates right now on the moral justification of their actions? Do you think that they have people wringing their hands in sorrow for cutting some saps head off for the Internet? Maybe they went to confession this morning and reneged on their pledge to kill any Christian or Jew wherever they find them. Perhaps you might see them as freedom fighters doing what any one of us would do if we were invaded by a foreign army. Open your eyes you damned fools! What wrong did we do to Muslims that some lunatic fringe element would take up their cause and attack civilian targets such as NY, Madrid, NY again in 2001, Kenya, Pakistan, Bali and Jerusalem? Shall I keep going? This is not some normal clearly defined war that both sides can agree to the pre established LOAC whereby we will both be ensured that captured prisoners will be treated ethically, temporary cease fires to evacuate wounded combatants, not engaging medical personnel and minimizing collateral damage. This is a war to the finish for them and so it should be for us.
As for creating insurgents, well I think that they are creating their own insurgents. Every part of their lives is strictly controlled. The leaders of the terrorist groups are not themselves going out on these attacks. They are recruiting some 16yr old with a tapeworm and a runny nose. They are not sending out the rich intelligentsia out to do battle with us as they have the means to see both sides of this issue therefore are much more informed. No, they are recruiting the poorest most uneducated as they have the least to lose, are most influenced by the strictly controlled media and traditionally will follow what their mullahs tell them to. This is who we are fighting against, a generation of older more influential men sending of their children, the flower of their culture off to do battle against tanks. We will stumble and make some mistakes, some we will gloss over and others will be blown far out of proportion (prisoner scandal and the media being mostly the only ones "outraged"). Remember this, we suffered setback after setback in WW1 and WW2. We came but a battle or two from losing both of those. Somehow, thanks to good leadership and realistic thinking and actions by people like us we won. Us, the good guys.
Wes, I couldn't agree more with your comments.
FUBAR, when someone close to you gets murdered and chopped into little pieces simply because they are from a western country or worship a different god then I'm sure your pacifist, appeasing attitude will change to a more offensive posture. The arguement is very simple. 9/11 was like someone sneaking in your home and killing your family as they slept in their beds. Your way of thinking says to me that a few hugs and forgiveness is the right way to solve the problem from ever happening again. However, your way of thinking is on the wrong side of history. In order to stop the next murder of the next family on the street in your neighborhood you must eliminate the cancer, eliminate the murderer from being in that position again. Yes, go in and wipe out the root cause of the cancer - the radical Islamic fundamentalists. Wes is absolutely correct and his experience can speak of it. You say this will breed more murderers. It probably will. But we also cannot stop eliminating the cancer as it spreads and one day there will be a cure. That cure is the realization of the terrorists that everytime they act against us we will respond overwhelmingly to continue trying to wipe them out by all means necessary. That's life bro. That's reality. There is no Utopia. There is no Kumbiya love and kisses for fellow human beings. There never was. Man hates man. Always has always will. Whether your stealing someones sneakers in the ghetto and get shot for it or whether you just happen to reside in a particular western country. The reasons for killing one another are endless. The solution is to be strong to deter it and show the consequences of the crime from happening agian.
Economics was brought up as a solution. Let the money flow in a postee said. Again, that is incorrect thinking on the wrong side of history. However much money you bring into your adversaries backyard to raise him up in the world won't change his way of thinking. The World Bank, The IMF, The UN and the United States have all pumped countless billions into these types of countries and the money has not made a difference in the least to curb one's thinking of killing us. In fact, this only breads corruption and embezzelment of funds and allows enemy leaders to purchase higher technology weapons systems to use against us. The lesson that works is what Wes says works. Bitch slap the enemy into submission until he learns that killing innocent westerns is not a good thing to do. FUBAR, it is unfortunate that man has to do this to one another and believe me I wish there was a solution that doesn't hurt anyone but this war isn't about territorial gain or greater riches or about weakening an enemy's army or stabilizing a region. This war is about keeping my/your family alive. And it's a worldwide fear. This war has no boundaries.
FUBAR, when someone close to you gets murdered and chopped into little pieces simply because they are from a western country or worship a different god then I'm sure your pacifist, appeasing attitude will change to a more offensive posture. The arguement is very simple. 9/11 was like someone sneaking in your home and killing your family as they slept in their beds. Your way of thinking says to me that a few hugs and forgiveness is the right way to solve the problem from ever happening again. However, your way of thinking is on the wrong side of history. In order to stop the next murder of the next family on the street in your neighborhood you must eliminate the cancer, eliminate the murderer from being in that position again. Yes, go in and wipe out the root cause of the cancer - the radical Islamic fundamentalists. Wes is absolutely correct and his experience can speak of it. You say this will breed more murderers. It probably will. But we also cannot stop eliminating the cancer as it spreads and one day there will be a cure. That cure is the realization of the terrorists that everytime they act against us we will respond overwhelmingly to continue trying to wipe them out by all means necessary. That's life bro. That's reality. There is no Utopia. There is no Kumbiya love and kisses for fellow human beings. There never was. Man hates man. Always has always will. Whether your stealing someones sneakers in the ghetto and get shot for it or whether you just happen to reside in a particular western country. The reasons for killing one another are endless. The solution is to be strong to deter it and show the consequences of the crime from happening agian.
Economics was brought up as a solution. Let the money flow in a postee said. Again, that is incorrect thinking on the wrong side of history. However much money you bring into your adversaries backyard to raise him up in the world won't change his way of thinking. The World Bank, The IMF, The UN and the United States have all pumped countless billions into these types of countries and the money has not made a difference in the least to curb one's thinking of killing us. In fact, this only breads corruption and embezzelment of funds and allows enemy leaders to purchase higher technology weapons systems to use against us. The lesson that works is what Wes says works. Bitch slap the enemy into submission until he learns that killing innocent westerns is not a good thing to do. FUBAR, it is unfortunate that man has to do this to one another and believe me I wish there was a solution that doesn't hurt anyone but this war isn't about territorial gain or greater riches or about weakening an enemy's army or stabilizing a region. This war is about keeping my/your family alive. And it's a worldwide fear. This war has no boundaries.
Now that is some great news! That prick had shit for brains. I don't blame Wes for telling him to piss off. This forum is seriously one of the few where you can have a serious debate on issues. - and that's a big thanks to the moderators and Mike Bobbit. most forums degenerate into mudslinging and sheer stirring the pot as FUBAR did.
Gotta run now to see the Bolts take the Stanley Cup from you canuckers! it's 7:59 PM EST and it's time to hit the ice - and a cool Labatts!
cheers guys.
Gotta run now to see the Bolts take the Stanley Cup from you canuckers! it's 7:59 PM EST and it's time to hit the ice - and a cool Labatts!
cheers guys.
S
Smoothbore
Guest
I believe it was me that Wes told to piss off for whatever reason, although I hadn't made any personal remarks....not the Fubar (didn't I hear that name in SPR?).
S
Smoothbore
Guest
Karopvage, although I agree with your post concerning terrorism, you are however completely mistaken with your previous post:
It is a well known fact that Calgary will serve Tampa a hellacious arse-whomping.
Karpovage said:
It is a well known fact that Calgary will serve Tampa a hellacious arse-whomping.
Scratch_043
Sr. Member
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it does not matter which team wins, because most of the players on both teams are canadian.Karpovage said:
P.S. you obviously have a great sense of national pride (I'm judging from your post), so tell me, why are you not drinking american beer?:-X;D
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