The forgotten end of the second world war

[FormerHorseGuard]

Black Lancasters: The story of heavy British bomber and first atomic bombs

The Avro Lancaster was an impressive aircraft, but it could also have been known as the plane that dropped the first atomic bombs.

interestingengineering.com

Lancaster - Nuclear Bomber?

Of the many tasks the Avro Lancaster carried out during its career, nuclear bomber was not one of them. In 1943, however, the Lancaster’s name appeared on a list of aircraft that could potentially carry the United States’ first atomic bomb. Was it ever a truly practical proposition?

www.key.aero

Lancaster Bomber Air Refuelling? - Axis History Forum

lots of interesting reading material on the lancaster with atomic bombing profile, and air to air refueling.

 

[CBH99]

He was a gunner. You can’t expect him to get a first round hit. He was good for line, just needed to bracket for distance.

The guy was blind in one eye guys! Sheesh!

I doubt the mess up had anything to do with his crayon eating habits or gunner brain symptoms

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Side note, Chin Peng the leader of the CT's in Malaysia said that at one point they 200 ex-Japanese soldiers working with them until it was decided that they might be an embarrassment and they were taken out into the jungle by their comrades and murdered.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Side note, Chin Peng the leader of the CT's in Malaysia said that at one point they 200 ex-Japanese soldiers working with them until it was decided that they might be an embarrassment and they were taken out into the jungle by their comrades and murdered.

He clearly learned from the best!

Thus the job of establishing contact with the British commando Force 136 fell to Chin Peng. The first party of that force, consisting of Capt. John Davis and five Chinese agents had landed in Malaya on 24 May 1943, by submarine. Chin Peng made contact with this armed group on 30 September 1943. He was active in his support for the British stay-behind troops but had no illusions about their failure to protect Malaya against the Japanese. In the course of this activity, he came into contact with Freddie Spencer Chapman, who called him a 'true friend' in his Malayan jungle memoir, 'The Jungle Is Neutral'.

Chin Peng - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[OldSolduer]

Let’s not forget the Japanese soldiers who fought for years after Japan’s surrender.

 

[GK .Dundas]

So here's the thing the Japanese military was quite prepared to fight to the last man ,woman and child.
The Americans from I recall reading were predicting their own casualties on the order of six figures monthly or higher .
So the question is do you commit Genocide while sustaining a million plus casualties or more .
Or do you drop the bombs ?

 

[daftandbarmy]

So here's the thing the Japanese military was quite prepared to fight to the last man ,woman and child.
The Americans from I recall reading were predicting their own casualties on the order of six figures monthly or higher .
So the question is do you commit Genocide while sustaining a million plus casualties or more .
Or do you drop the bombs ?

An interesting 'consideration' I haven't seen before:

Operation Downfall​

The primary considerations that the planners had to deal with were time and casualties—how they could force Japan's surrender as quickly as possible with as few Allied casualties as possible. Prior to the First Quebec Conference, a joint Canadian–British–American planning team produced a plan ("Appreciation and Plan for the Defeat of Japan") which did not call for an invasion of the Japanese Home Islands until 1947–48.[7][8] The American Joint Chiefs of Staff believed that prolonging the war to such an extent was dangerous for national morale. Instead, at the Quebec conference, the Combined Chiefs of Staff agreed that Japan should be forced to surrender not more than one year after Germany's surrender.[9][10]

Operation Downfall - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Happy Guy]

Note there have been numerous academic discussions with regard whether the US needed to drop the nuclear bomb on Japan to force it surrender. I refer to the LA Times article.

"Allied intelligence had been reporting for months that Soviet entry would force the Japanese to capitulate. As early as April 11, 1945, the Joint Chiefs of Staff’s Joint Intelligence Staff had predicted: “If at any time the USSR should enter the war, all Japanese will realize that absolute defeat is inevitable.”

Truman knew that the Japanese were searching for a way to end the war; he had referred to Togo’s intercepted July 12 cable as the “telegram from the Jap emperor asking for peace.”

Truman also knew that the Soviet invasion would knock Japan out of the war. At the summit in Potsdam, Germany, on July 17, following Stalin’s assurance that the Soviets were coming in on schedule, Truman wrote in his diary, “He’ll be in the Jap War on August 15. Fini Japs when that comes about.” The next day, he assured his wife, “We’ll end the war a year sooner now, and think of the kids who won’t be killed!”

The Soviets invaded Japanese-held Manchuria at midnight on Aug. 8 and quickly destroyed the vaunted Kwantung Army. As predicted, the attack traumatized Japan’s leaders. They could not fight a two-front war, and the threat of a communist takeover of Japanese territory was their worst nightmare.

Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki explained on Aug. 13 that Japan had to surrender quickly because “the Soviet Union will take not only Manchuria, Korea, Karafuto, but also Hokkaido. This would destroy the foundation of Japan. We must end the war when we can deal with the United States.”

Seven of the United States’ eight five-star Army and Navy officers in 1945 agreed with the Navy’s vitriolic assessment. Generals Dwight Eisenhower, Douglas MacArthur and Henry “Hap” Arnold and Admirals William Leahy, Chester Nimitz, Ernest King, and William Halsey are on record stating that the atomic bombs were either militarily unnecessary, morally reprehensible, or both.

No one was more impassioned in his condemnation than Leahy, Truman’s chief of staff. He wrote in his memoir “that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender …. In being the first to use it we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages.”

MacArthur thought the use of atomic bombs was inexcusable. He later wrote to former President Hoover that if Truman had followed Hoover’s “wise and statesmanlike” advice to modify its surrender terms and tell the Japanese they could keep their emperor, “the Japanese would have accepted it and gladly I have no doubt.”


My family and I visited the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum which tells the story of effects of the nuclear blast which destoryed the city, killed thousands of people and deadly after effects of radiation poisoning. As a someone who had to take several courses with regards to nuclear warfare and radiation safety I thought that I understood the horror of nuclear warfare - I was wrong. I was deeply moved and affected by the displays. To this day, people leave water bottles on memorials to appease the unquenchable thirst of the irradiated people. There are stories of how the people suffered especially the children. My wife had to leave the museum after 30 minutes because she was overcome with sadness when she read and saw the displays. My children and I managed to see the entire display.

I have no doubt the nuclear weapons are needed and the concept of mutually assured destruction has kept us safe for decades, .... but I urge you to visit the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum, even virtually for educational purposes. To this day I say a prayer to those innocent civilians who died and hope no nuclear bombs will ever be use in war. It truely is a terrifying weapon.

 

[GR66]

MacArthur thought the use of atomic bombs was inexcusable. He later wrote to former President Hoover that if Truman had followed Hoover’s “wise and statesmanlike” advice to modify its surrender terms and tell the Japanese they could keep their emperor, “the Japanese would have accepted it and gladly I have no doubt.”

This part is quite ironic.

This website quotes from the 1964 book "The Long and Illustrious Career of General Douglas MacArthur" his plan to win the Korean War:

In his 1964 book Gen. Douglas MacArthur (Gold Medal Books, Greenwich, Conn.), Bob Considine writes, “MacArthur’s final plan for winning the Korean War was outlined to this reporter in the course of an interview in 1954 on his 74th birthday. … ” “Of all the campaigns in my life—20 major ones to be exact—the one I felt the most sure of was the one I was deprived of waging properly. I could have won the war in Korea in a maximum of 10 days, once the campaign was under way, and with considerably fewer casualties than were suffered during the so-called truce period. It would have altered the course of history.

The Nuclear Solution​

“The enemy’s air would first have been taken out. I would have dropped between 30 to 50 tactical atomic bombs on his air bases and other depots strung across the neck of Manchuria from just across the Yalu at Antung (northwest tip of Korea) to the neighborhood of Hunchun (northeast tip of Korea near the border of the USSR).

“That many bombs would have more than done the job! Dropped under the cover of darkness, when his planes were in for the night, they would have destroyed his air force on the ground, wiped out his maintenance and his airmen. …

“With the destruction of the enemy’s air power, I would then have called upon a half million of Chiang Kai-shek’s troops, sweetened by two U.S. Marine divisions. These would have been formed into two amphibious forces. One, totaling four-fifths of my strength and led by one of the Marine divisions, would have landed at Antung and proceeded eastward along the road that parallels the Yalu.

 

[mariomike]

One can argue that "the Jerries look like us so we won't drop it on them" and that "the Japs are savages anyways" (which we know is untrue) so it may not have been dropped on Berlin.

Maybe. Maybe not.

But, they didn't pull any punches with Germany.

Bomber Command and the USAAF saturated Germany right up until 16 Apr., 1945 when area bombing was finally called off.

By then, the means, which had for so long been lacking, had overtaken the ends.

 

[JLB50]

This part is quite ironic.

This website quotes from the 1964 book "The Long and Illustrious Career of General Douglas MacArthur" his plan to win the Korean War:

I can’t say it was a mistake to use the Bomb considering all of the many other factors that influenced the decision. What I do agree with is the decision to use it initially in a highly populated area. Even if the Americans basically got word to the Japanese leaders and said: “Hey, something especially terrible is going to happen in your country…we’re not saying where or exactly when tomorrow but you’ll see what it portends for the future of your country if you don’t surrender immediately”. And then they drop the Bomb on a relatively unpopulated island. Once the first Bomb was dropped, then they perhaps could have dropped it, if necessary, on a more highly industrialized centre or military area…but not on a mainly civilian city.

 

[GK .Dundas]

You're working on the assumption the Japanese government actually would have been allowed to surrender .
I can not even begin to explain just how much control a senior to mid level group of officers had or the insane lengths they were prepared to go to in order to achieve their goals
It was quite literally Victory or Death . And not just their deaths but literally everyone in Japan.
When you read some of their beliefs and plan's for their own nation. They weren't planning on defending their nation they were planning on immolating it and killing the entire population..
The more you read the more your mind rebels against this. . It's just not possible you think sadly it was very possible .
I think however the bombs shocked them for moment and that the actual government and the Emperor were able to use that time in order for the now famous radio speech .
It came surprisingly at least to us that this practically put a lot the civil population into a state of shock . An incredible amount of the people honestly thought that they were actually winning the war or at least holding their own .
That was the extent of governmental control over news and information.

 

[JLB50]

No such assumptions. Those in control of Japan’s government and military were fanatics. But I’ve read where the U.S. was planning to drop a third Bomb and as many more as it would take to save lives and bring down Japan’s government. I agree with Truman’s decision to use the bomb and if necessary, to use it on cities, but only if the Japanese government was not swayed by the power of the Bomb being used on a less populated area.

On a personal note, my father served in the U.S. Navy during WW2 and had many horror stories to tell about the fanatics they were dealing with. I used to have a collection of grisly photos (until my mother got disgusted and threw them out) he had taken while ashore on some of the islands they took back from the Japanese. Yes, the Japanese did some terrible, inhuman things. Also, worth considering is that there were millions in Japan who never did support their government, just as there many Germans who never supported Hitler and his thugs.

Again, I’m not arguing against using the Bomb on people if necessary, but just not initially.