Hurricane Relief

[daftandbarmy]

oops...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1843461175335686296

 

[FSTO]

At what point does the government say, “We will not underwrite the rebuilding of residences in vulnerable zones. You can rebuild on your own dime but you are on your own for everything. We’ll offer you a onetime relocation to a more stable area but there will be no government support if you insist on living in a danger zone.”

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Where exactly is such "more stable area" in the US? The Midwest tornado alley? California's wildfire and earthquake zone?

You can't relocate all the Americans into Upstate New-York, Vermont and New Hampshire.

 

[FSTO]

All along the Mississippi the feds moved homes and even a couple of towns from flood prone areas to higher ground. It can be done.

There was a peninsula in Tampa Bay that was wiped out by Milton. It is a site that should never been developed and they are idiots if they are allowed to rebuild there.

 

[lenaitch]

All along the Mississippi the feds moved homes and even a couple of towns from flood prone areas to higher ground. It can be done.

There was a peninsula in Tampa Bay that was wiped out by Milton. It is a site that should never been developed and they are idiots if they are allowed to rebuild there.

Sometimes it's the government's own (in)action. I recall a lot of flooding in Texas a few years ago due to a hurricane (Houston, Dallas, don't recall) and it was pointed out that they have virtually no land use laws.

 

[FJAG]

At what point does the government say, “We will not underwrite the rebuilding of residences in vulnerable zones. You can rebuild on your own dime but you are on your own for everything. We’ll offer you a onetime relocation to a more stable area but there will be no government support if you insist on living in a danger zone.”

It's an interesting thing actually. Back when I was a kid in the 1950s it was a standing joke that people were being sold swamp lands in Florida when the population there was under 5 million. It has almost quintupled since then and one of the most developed areas are the intercoastal barrier islands that are essentially sand reefs offshore of much of the Atlantic and Gulf coasts. These would be inaccessible to anyone without a boat but for the massive spending by governments on numerous massive bridges that connect these long skinny islands with the mainland. In fairness one can say that government has made these lands accessible to the public in the first place. Initially land here was cheap but now is amongst the most expensive anywhere and one can see why. I've spent a lot of time down there and a lot of those places are simply gorgeous. For many retired folks its the prize earned after a lifetime of working hard.

This is not something as simple as moving a half dozen villages on the St Lawrence when the Seaway was built ... or even ones on the Mississippi. It would be politically and practically impossible. The easier solution is to hide ones' head in the sand and throw a few billion at the relief efforts when one of those hurricanes hits a major built up centre rather than the 2,400 folks living in Apalachicola. In the long run it spreads the risk and costs across the entire country. And essentially that's done as well for folks who live in areas where forest fires break out routinely and flooding along river valleys - the favourite place for cities to start to grow in the days of the steamship riverboats - occurs.

 

[FSTO]

^^
I guess I’m of a different mindset. I’ll visit the warm areas for a month or so (outside of hurricane season) but I’d never purchase. To me it’s just not worth the angst.

 

[lenaitch]

swamp lands in Florida

You just described pretty much all of the State. The highest elevation is 345' ASL and the average is only 100' - for now.

 

[FSTO]

I think owning a dump truck and a front end loader tractor is a license to print money in coastal Florida these days.

 

[daftandbarmy]

At what point does the government say, “We will not underwrite the rebuilding of residences in vulnerable zones. You can rebuild on your own dime but you are on your own for everything. We’ll offer you a onetime relocation to a more stable area but there will be no government support if you insist on living in a danger zone.”

Under those assumptions we should write off Calgary, which will likely be washed away by the Bow/Elbow rivers at some point in the (maybe not so distant) future ...

 

[FSTO]

Under those assumptions we should write off Calgary, which will likely be washed away by the Bow/Elbow rivers at some point in the (maybe not so distant) future ...

Now you're just being an ass . Most of the city is off the flood plain.
Winnipeg OTH did the job to mitigate the effects of the Red River. Originally, Selkirk (which is on higher ground and doesn't flood) was going to be the hub for the CPR but as per usual politics overtook practicality.

 

[Brad Sallows]

We're stuck with where some things were built up. Mistakes ought not be repeated when wiped away, though.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Millions of tons of fill to raise the ground level and lots of armouring. Also building offshore reefs and islands to reduce the storm wave effects.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Now you're just being an ass . Most of the city is off the flood plain.
Winnipeg OTH did the job to mitigate the effects of the Red River. Originally, Selkirk (which is on higher ground and doesn't flood) was going to be the hub for the CPR but as per usual politics overtook practicality.

That and if the story is true it was politics and a "gift" of a hundred grand plus the Land the rail yards sit on tax free in perpetuity.

 

[FJAG]

You just described pretty much all of the State. The highest elevation is 345' ASL and the average is only 100' - for now.

While not the highest point in Florida, which is Britton Hill, I've been a frequent visitor and picnicker at Bok Tower which is almost as high. Every time I think of it I can almost smell the scent of the orange groves spread out below. One thing that I find amusing is that there are buildings in Florida that are considerably higher than these hills (even when you add in the 200' tower at Bok).

 

[ArmyRick]

Hell evacuate ALL of Grey, Bruce and Simcoe Counties here in Ontario, we get massive dumps of lake effect (NOT climate change) snow every winter and sometimes in mega blizzards that bury highways for weeks at a time. WE potentially save lives and a bundle on not having snow removal.
Then evacuate all the interior BC and western Alberta since modern governments are afraid to burn or chop a few trees down and we don't more fires.
Wait a minute, how bad was the ice storm along Ontario and Quebec? Haven't they had more ice storms since then? OK, pack it up gang, time to move.
Whoa, hold the phone, doesn't Saskatchewan suffer droughts some times? Get those farmers outta there.

Saying people shouldn't live in Florida is ridiculous. Now taking preventative measures (including costly insurance) is a different story.

 

[FSTO]

Saying people shouldn't live in Florida is ridiculous. Now taking preventative measures (including costly insurance) is a different story.

I don't think I said people couldn't live in Florida, my argument is that they shouldn't be encouraged to live in places that are extremely vulnerable to severe weather events.

Watching the news the last couple of days, the main refrain is that most of the folks don't have insurance, can't get insurance, and that insurance companies are refusing even entertain offering a policy. In the end I expect the market to force people to reflect on their choice of places to live.
I can also see the state decide to start charging income taxes and other taxes to underwrite their own insurance service.

“Everything depends on the rest of this hurricane season, and we are approaching the most dangerous time,” says Florida Representative Spencer Roach when he spoke to Bankrate in August. One of Roach’s main concerns is whether any of Florida’s nine new insurance companies will remain in the state after the next big hurricane. “Right now, everything looks great, and rates have dropped slightly,” says Roach.

But if another storm happens tomorrow in Tampa Bay, which is long, long overdue for a major hit, all of this could go by the wayside. The property market could collapse, and legislators will have to prop these insurance companies back up and go back to the drawing board.— Florida Representative Spencer Roach

 

[KevinB]

I don't think I said people couldn't live in Florida, my argument is that they shouldn't be encouraged to live in places that are extremely vulnerable to severe weather events.

Watching the news the last couple of days, the main refrain is that most of the folks don't have insurance, can't get insurance, and that insurance companies are refusing even entertain offering a policy. In the end I expect the market to force people to reflect on their choice of places to live.
I can also see the state decide to start charging income taxes and other taxes to underwrite their own insurance service.

“Everything depends on the rest of this hurricane season, and we are approaching the most dangerous time,” says Florida Representative Spencer Roach when he spoke to Bankrate in August. One of Roach’s main concerns is whether any of Florida’s nine new insurance companies will remain in the state after the next big hurricane. “Right now, everything looks great, and rates have dropped slightly,” says Roach.

Florida building codes are pretty decent. Most homes are either block or poured concrete, it’s nigh impossible to build a wood framed structure anymore.

The issue is going to be insurance, at some point it will become too costly to ensure some areas IF the homes/buildings aren’t build to to account for the issues — as noted rates have dropped for a lot of people in Fl, simply as structures continue to be fortified against these storms.

It is virtually impossible to find a basement in Florida given the water table, and most in threat flood areas already don’t have a ground floor dwelling.

If you look at a lot of Hurricane destruction over the past years, Florida even though it tends to take the brunt, the major of damage (and lost lives) are in other states — due to the lesser building codes.

Less and less people evacuate each year, as either real or imagined the preparedness is higher.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Florida building codes are pretty decent. . . .

The issue is going to be insurance, at some point it will become too costly to ensure some areas IF the homes/buildings aren’t build to to account for the issues — as noted rates have dropped for a lot of people in Fl, simply as structures continue to be fortified against these storms.

Champlain Towers South, Surfside FL enters the chat.

Though the collapse was not directly related to a storm, non-compliance with building codes was a factor, as well as weather (water infiltration to the structure). You can have the most rigid building codes in the country, but cutting corners and lax inspections will undo the best of intentions. With all levels of government in a "no tax" state hewing closely to that mantra as well as condo boards following suit to keep costs to owners down, lots of things are given only a cursory review.

 

[OldSolduer]

Now you're just being an ass . Most of the city is off the flood plain.
Winnipeg OTH did the job to mitigate the effects of the Red River. Originally, Selkirk (which is on higher ground and doesn't flood) was going to be the hub for the CPR but as per usual politics overtook practicality.

The Fort Gary Hotel has an interesting story. I’ll relate it later.