I GOT A CALL FOR the NOAB" Threads

[Ridgeline]

the thought that engineering jobs that I or others like me could apply for would be given to non engineers does bother me in principle.  It's about the same in any skilled trade or profession.  I'd hate to see medical jobs given to engineers (drastic example, but sort of conveys my feelings). 

Actually ... Last time I checked .. which was today... I was told you cannot enter engineering trades without an engineering or some science degree ... which I feel both are the "same" or just as hard.  I assume 4th year bio chemistry would not be the easiest for you?  just a thought ...

I can see a difference between a BA and a BSC or engineering ... obviously there are differences, however, I myself who has a BA in history would contend that history is indeed the hardest degree to get ...

Obviously any degree you get is important, and I don't think that just because one man has a science or engineering degree means in any way that he or she is Superior to anyone who chooses a BA ... Trust me I know engineers who have their masters who could not find their way out of a balloon... A degree is a degree ... all degrees are all hard to obtain, and they each deserve the same amount of respect.

My wife has her MArch ... but she doesn't think any less of me for studying Nazi's or military history ...

I'm not trying to burst your bubble, but an engineering degree is not the be all end all ... it's a degree, and it lets you do specific jobs ... congrats for getting it , however, do not assume that makes you any better then anyone , even if they do not have a degree

just my two cents

 

[Mattl86]

I'm not trying to burst your bubble, but an engineering degree is not the be all end all ... it's a degree, and it lets you do specific jobs ... congrats for getting it , however, do not assume that makes you any better then anyone , even if they do not have a degree

You are completely right of course.  My brother is doing a BA in History actually.  Makes him no less of a person than me, though it certainly opens up a different set of job opportunities.

More on topic, is there anyone out there still in the application process waiting on a NOAB?  Have the been informed which wau the next NOAB will be conducted, phone or full NOAB?  My recruiter said there was a chance this phone interview might become standard.

 

[theSeaDog]

I've said a lot of things in this thread that were read differently than I meant them, so let me clarify my position:  I don't think engineers are smarter or better people.  I do think they are more prepared to enter an engineering job in the Navy than other people are.  And yes, I'm pretty defensive about this, because I worked hard for that degree and the thought that engineering jobs that I or others like me could apply for would be given to non engineers does bother me in principle.

In my opinion, people on this board tend to make sport out of attacking unqualified statements. Not that they are wrong, but it tends to lead threads downhill. I say you are making an unqualified statement because you are making assumptions about what the job requires before you even know. For the NCSE position, they accept several engineering degrees as the preferred degree, as well as some science as acceptable degrees. Most of what you need to know to perform this job.... they teach you. It's years of training before you're "qualified" as an NSCE. I believe there are a few courses during the engineering phase training that Electrical engineers don't have to do, but other than that, be prepared to adjust your assumptions. There are technical aspects to this position, but you're not going to be Scotty; the majority of the post is administrative, managerial type duties.

A degree is a piece of paper regardless of what is written there; certainly, it's still something to be proud of. The fallacy of the recent undergrad is to assume their degree makes them automatically qualified in their chosen field. When I was assisting my last company in recruiting the manager told me, "I don't care what their degree is. All it tells me is they can learn, and they can apply themselves." In the end we chose a guy that had no degree, 5 years of experience and was a self taught programmer over one guy that had a B.Eng in software engineering and a 4.0 average.

Be proud, but don't be arrogant. In the face of experience, a degree is a piece of paper.

As an aside, I was Computer Science; while I was at university, we thought we were better than everyone - except physics, but we viewed ourselves as on par with them.

 

[gcclarke]

I didn't mean it as an absolute statement.  I'll take responsibility for any confusion in that regard.  I certainly don't want to come off as someone with all the answers before I even start my CF career.
We could debate this forever.  I would point out that the written communication skills needed as an officer might more closely relate to the professional report style of writing engineers are used to, but I'm not in a position to speak on this with any authority.

Anyway, it's obvious you don't have an engineering degree and it's equally obvious I do, so it's not suprising you and I disagree on it being more applicable to the NCS Engineering job than a history degree.

Just for the record, I graduated in 2004 with a BSc in Mechanical Engineering from the University of Calgary, and am currently serving as the Assistant Combat Systems Engineering Officer aboard Her Majesty's Canadian Ship VANCOUVER. So, suffice it to say I have a rough idea both of the skills required to be a Naval Engineer, and what it takes to make it through an engineering degree.

The post you were responding to when you decided to go ahead and make completely unwarranted assumptions wasn't me trying to say that people with non-engineers would make better engineering officers. It was my attempt to dispell the notion that the mere fact that someone is able to get through an engineering degree makes them: A) Smarter; B) Better equipped to handle stress; C) Harder working; or D) Better at the job of an NTO; compared to their non-engineering brethren.

I will say that I think that having an engineering degree makes it either more likely that someone would be able to successfully complete their training and become trade qualified, or at least make it easier for the person. For CSEs at least, I think a very large part of this would be because both engineering and our ashore training are very math intensive. At least on my course, the ones who struggled the most were those who came from non-engineering backgrounds. Our course is basically an 8 month crash course in electrical engineering; I can see how it would be difficult to do that while attempting to teach yourself calculus and differential equations at the same time. I can't really say what the case may be for the MSE side of the house.

However, that having been said, once they do get trained up, those with Math or Comp Sci or Geophysics degrees or whatever else is on the "acceptable degree" list can certainly make perfectly competent engineering officers.

 

[alejo]

It`s sad how some underestimate the value of a degree. If finishing university was so easy, then how come not everyone has done it?

I know that comparing military life to university life is not possible, but in general, someone with a university degree is better prepared than someone without it. If this wasn't the case, then I would see no logic in requiring a university degree to become an officer. This happens also in most government jobs, where a university degree is required to be even able to apply.

Now as to some degrees being harder than others, there is really no way of knowing, unless you have multiple degrees. What I do notice is that people in humanities and social sciences usually have more free time than people doing pure sciences, especially chemistry and physics. This is perhaps due to the fact that most of the science degrees take a lot of the student's time doing labs.

In any case, I do not mean to add more fuel to the fire, but I just wanted to make my case on the importance of going to university and getting a degree. It is definitely more than a piece of paper. In fact, I could care less about that piece of paper, since I don't even hang it on my wall. But the reasoning, analytical, research, and many other skills that I acquired, have surely given me some great tools that will help me in the future of my career.

 

[Ridgeline]

What I do notice is that people in humanities and social sciences usually have more free time than people doing pure sciences, especially chemistry and physics. This is perhaps due to the fact that most of the science degrees take a lot of the student's time doing labs.

Good Point,  My friends with Science degrees never went to the pub as often as us History majors did

 

[forgiven]

It is definitely more than a piece of paper. In fact, I could care less about that piece of paper, since I don't even hang it on my wall. But the reasoning, analytical, research, and many other skills that I acquired, have surely given me some great tools that will help me in the future of my career.

Agree.  The treasure does not lie in that piece of paper, but in the journey itself.

Peace everyone!

 

[theSeaDog]

It`s sad how some underestimate the value of a degree. If finishing university was so easy, then how come not everyone has done it?

I know that comparing military life to university life is not possible, but in general, someone with a university degree is better prepared than someone without it. If this wasn't the case, then I would see no logic in requiring a university degree to become an officer. This happens also in most government jobs, where a university degree is required to be even able to apply.

I'd say cost is the reason not everyone has done it. That, and perhaps personal interest and learning style. However you cannot assume that it makes you better or more capable than someone.

It doesn't mean you are better prepared, it means you meet a standard. Someone without the degree (say a serving NCM) could easily be better prepared for it than you. It's all good. Hubris lasts until the Chiefs get a hold of ya

An engineer gets a bit more practical experience while attending university, but you have to consider that to even become a Professional Engineer requires at least a two-four year post grad internship.

University gives you a good base within your field. You learn the "basics" from which you can further grow your knowledge of the field. You said it correctly later in your post:

But the reasoning, analytical, research, and many other skills that I acquired, have surely given me some great tools that will help me in the future of my career.

There's the real value of university. It extends to most degrees.

 

[George Wallace]

It`s sad how some underestimate the value of a degree. If finishing university was so easy, then how come not everyone has done it?

I think that a reply earlier by theSeaDog would have corrected your preception, but I guess not.  You'll mature some day and understand what he was saying.  Funny thing that.....maturity.

I know that comparing military life to university life is not possible, but in general, someone with a university degree is better prepared than someone without it. If this wasn't the case, then I would see no logic in requiring a university degree to become an officer. This happens also in most government jobs, where a university degree is required to be even able to apply.

I disagree with this tendency of Government, that was 'forced' on the DND and the CF by our political masters who worship pieces of paper framed up on walls above their desks to prove to the world that they are superior.  It is a false concept.  I will not get into the incompetence we see in some of our senior bureaucrats who have numerous pieces of paper framed and hanging on walls above their desks in all levels of government, and focus on one thing, the CF.  A Degree does not make you a Leader.  Just because you hold a Degree does no mean that you have the qualities required to be an officer in the CF.  Many of you smart arses are going to FAIL on you Basic courses, or later on your Trades Courses.  A Degree is not going to guarantee you a PASS.  There are many others who are now disenfranchised from becoming officers, who have natural leadership and people skills because they do not have a Degree.  They will now have to struggle through the Education System and get a Degree if they do want to become an officer, where before they would have already been climbing up through the officer ranks.  The CF may face the loss of many excellent Leaders due to these knee jerk decisions made by the Chrétien government to justify some concept they had about what our officer Corps should be.

Now as to some degrees being harder than others, there is really no way of knowing, unless you have multiple degrees. What I do notice is that people in humanities and social sciences usually have more free time than people doing pure sciences, especially chemistry and physics. This is perhaps due to the fact that most of the science degrees take a lot of the student's time doing labs.

Or perhaps you were not as smart, or perhaps have as high an IQ, as they.  Who knows?  (Although I would tend to agree with you........Wait!  No I don't.  The Engineer faculty were the biggest party animals at my university and every university I visited.)

In any case, I do not mean to add more fuel to the fire, but I just wanted to make my case on the importance of going to university and getting a degree. It is definitely more than a piece of paper. In fact, I could care less about that piece of paper, since I don't even hang it on my wall. But the reasoning, analytical, research, and many other skills that I acquired, have surely given me some great tools that will help me in the future of my career.

Then why did you get me in the mood to rant over your opening statement, if you really don't care.  In the end, as theSeaDog says, don't let the falacy that your Degree is somehow superior to what others may have, as it really means very little when the CF will be teaching you all you need to know about your future Trade.  Nothing in your previous education will have prepared you for this, other than some good study habits, good communication skills (now a lost art at most institutions of higher learning today), .......and that is about it.

 

[aesop081]

*cough* NOAB *cough*

 

[alejo]

Why so much anger in some of the posts?

I disagree with this tendency of Government, that was 'forced' on the DND and the CF by our political masters who worship pieces of paper framed up on walls above their desks to prove to the world that they are superior.  It is a false concept.  I will not get into the incompetence we see in some of our senior bureaucrats who have numerous pieces of paper framed and hanging on walls above their desks in all levels of government, and focus on one thing, the CF.  A Degree does not make you a Leader.  Just because you hold a Degree does no mean that you have the qualities required to be an officer in the CF.  Many of you smart arses are going to FAIL on you Basic courses, or later on your Trades Courses.  A Degree is not going to guarantee you a PASS.  There are many others who are now disenfranchised from becoming officers, who have natural leadership and people skills because they do not have a Degree.  They will now have to struggle through the Education System and get a Degree if they do want to become an officer, where before they would have already been climbing up through the officer ranks.  The CF may face the loss of many excellent Leaders due to these knee jerk decisions made by the Chrétien government to justify some concept they had about what our officer Corps should be.

I never claimed that having a degree makes someone superior, or a better leader, or anything like that. Heck, I didn't even mention my degree, which I don't feel is the hardest to get at all. Anyone with good study habits will surely graduate from math. It helps to like the subject as well.

All I was saying is that having a degree is more than just getting a piece of paper. It is an experience that should not be underestimated!!

Research gives you the reason though, as statistically speaking, there has not been any evidence showing that higher education leads to better job performance. So I'm guessing there are some other hidden reasons that our "political masters" have behind "forcing" those decisions.

Or perhaps you were not as smart, or perhaps have as high an IQ, as they.  Who knows?  (Although I would tend to agree with you........Wait!  No I don't.  The Engineer faculty were the biggest party animals at my university and every university I visited.)

I made no mention of engineering in my post at all!! So I don't know what you are talking about!

Then why did you get me in the mood to rant over your opening statement, if you really don't care.  In the end, as theSeaDog says, don't let the falacy that your Degree is somehow superior to what others may have, as it really means very little when the CF will be teaching you all you need to know about your future Trade.  Nothing in your previous education will have prepared you for this, other than some good study habits, good communication skills (now a lost art at most institutions of higher learning today), .......and that is about it.

Just like you defend your position that a degree is just a piece of paper, I felt the need to defend mine that it is not. I think everyone has the right to express, and defend their beliefs right?
I will take advice from you, since you are an experienced CF member, and go assuming that nothing I know will prepare me for what is to come. The only thing I know, is that despite all the hardships I encountered during my studies, I never gave up and successfully finished my degree! I will apply the same, and work as hard as I can, and never give up in the CF as well!

That was the best that I got out of my university degree!

 

[George Wallace]

Can I correct you on this?

I never claimed that having a degree makes someone superior, or a better leader, or anything like that.

I didn't quite refer to it the way you are, but in the final analysis, I guess I did.  If you have to deal with any of these guys, they do think along those lines. 

Yada Yada Yada............ by our political masters who worship pieces of paper framed up on walls above their desks to prove to the world that they are superior. 

 

[George Wallace]

We had quite a good debate on the matter of the Government making the decision that "the CF would require all officers to have a Degree" a few years back.  It was indeed a knee jerk reaction by the Chrétien Government to an incident where a CF officer who did not hold a Degree from any university was involved, and the Chrétien Government basically hung him out to dry.  I can not remember the incident at this moment, but it was the introduction of this fallacy that his having a Degree would/may have prevented the event from occurring in the manner it did. 

 

[alejo]

I'm sure it was an interesting debate.

There is obviously more to being a leader than just holding a degree. And as you have said, a lot of good candidates are being ignored because of this education requirement, which is completely unfair!

Maybe things will change in the future, who knows, but whatever happens, let's hope is for the best interest of the CF.

Enough said!


Now back to topic please!

 

[alejo]

  My recruiter said there was a chance this phone interview might become standard.

While I am happy that I was selected without a need to go to an actual NOAB, I think that removing them completely will take off some of the essence of the selection system for the Navy. I would have love going to Esquimalt, but hey, not everything goes the way you plan it.

At least I have had experience with life at sea before, so I am assuming I know a little bit (very little) of what it will be like. However, many candidates might be faced with a lot of surprises when the NETP starts. Maybe I am wrong!

I am assuming that either the need to hire candidates is so high, that they will try to get as many people in as possible, or perhaps there is not enough budget to hold these NOABs anymore? Maybe a little bit of both?

I am also wondering how many of us were hired using this phone method. If two out of two posters (Matt and I) were selected, then maybe most of the other applicants were successful as well!

 

[kartik]

Whether people on this forum agree or not, this trend of calling candidates and offering positions is not going to help CF in long run. Agreed that CF requires people but this is no way getting people on board. CF is not any other company where you get a phone call. The society is assuming unlimited liability of all the members of CF and if they make 1 mistake, entire society suffers. As discussed in this thread about leadership qualities, I am sure even the CF recruiters will agree that phone interview is not the way selecting a leader. Everytime Navy has to hold NOAB, they have to justify the cost. My agrument is CF is spending more money by sending a candidate to BMOQ. In case the candidate is put on Warrior Platoon then additional 3 months of cost. That seems to be justified. This is no way selecting leader. The process should start at the recruitment center. There should be psychological testing, leadership testing etc.. done before an actual phone interview(If they want to make this a trend). In my opinion, even the NOAB does not get proper candidates. I am sorry for being opiniated here, but during my NOAB, people who shouldnt be selected were given a go ahead. Whatever. I have mentioned this in previous post and I am writing this again, there needs to be a complete overhauling of recruitment process if CF wants "quality" leaders.

Ok, I am not mentioning about degree and non degree here. It should be holistic

 

[George Wallace]

guysletsdoit

The Recruiting System gets its orders to recruit a certain number of persons for a certain number of positions decided upon by the various Trades/Branches/Corps/etc. in the whole CF.  Their job is to Recruit.  That is all.  Once a prospective CF member has been recruited they upon enrollment are now in the care of the Training System.  The Recruiting and the Training Systems are two completely different systems and are in no way related.  One is tasked with bringing people in, nothing more.  The other is tasked with training those who have been enrolled.  From there the new members are then sent off to do their actual Trades training, which for most means that they now are in a totally new 'system' with totally different policies. 

The various 'systems' often do not mesh very well with each other.  If they did, we wouldn't see such backlogs in training across the spectrum of the CF.

The fact that some people are being selected over the phone, may be a result of someone trying to streamline the selection process.  The unfortunate thing is, if the Training System is not prepared to take them, this streamlining is all for naught.

 

[kartik]

George:

My vent was not against any one system. What I am trying to put together is that the recruitment system and the BMOQ(just BMOQ) should work together. I am sure if a candidate is not CF material he will be rejected from BMOQ and will not proceed further. If these 2 systems work in unison, we might see different results. That will justify the cost factor as there wont be many warrior platoons etc..In fact this will have enough time to the other training systems to adjust to the influx of officers from BMOQ. This phone interview thing and to certain extent NOAB too, is not a sound system. No doubt NOAB has given good results but in my opinion does not consider certain qualities required for leadership role. Given the time, CF should be very selective in getting candidates. I say this to all and I will say here "I have 300 sailors ready to drop their pants off at my command" This is what I mean by leadership. I dont have many words to express what I am trying to say but I am sure people are smart enough to understand the meaning

 

[Olexa]

More on topic, is there anyone out there still in the application process waiting on a NOAB?  Have the been informed which wau the next NOAB will be conducted, phone or full NOAB?  My recruiter said there was a chance this phone interview might become standard.

Yes, I am.  In November, my File Manager informed me that the Navy had decided against holding another NOAB in December. I was also told that unlike engineers MARS applicants must go through a NOAB to be selected and that the next NOAB is going to take place in March/April 2011.