IDF Back Into Gaza for Kidnapped Cpl.

[tomahawk6]

The 18 year old civilian who was kidnapped was found dead in a shallow grave. Evidently killed shortly after his kidnapping.

Gaza had become a terrorist training base which threatened Israel. This operation will destroy Hamas and the Fatah terror groups in the Gaza. The Israelis have captured over 30 top Hamas political leaders as leverage in getting their man back. I dont see Gaza being returned to the control of the PA anytime soon.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Some of the latest, as of 0644EDT:

IDF Nabs Hamas Deputy PM, MPs, Cabinet Members
http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/zones/sundaytimesNEW/basket7st/basket7st1151575062.aspx

ISR Air Force Buzzes Jordan's Bosses
http://story.irishsun.com/p.x/ct/9/id/d55149cc2587b122/cid/2411cd3571b4f088/

Even RUSSIA Says Cpl. Should be Released!
http://mosnews.com/news/2006/06/29/russiaslamspalestine.shtml

IDF:  More to Come...
http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=106234
...But Endgame Not in Sight Yet
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1150885876417&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

French ForMin Criticizes ISR, Saying "Diplomacy" is the Answer
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885878440&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

Okay,  maybe off topic here,  I find the argument of "collective punishment" kind of ... well invalid.  They chose to elect people who would take military actions against Israel.  Those elected leaders chose to order those actions.  If Canada elected a leadership that then attacked America,  how could we say "oh don't hurt us that's collective punishment".  This isn't a group of simple criminals bent on provoking Israel into action,  this was an action taken by one Government against another.

On a really off colour comment ...(to balance out my seemingly pro Israel paragraph) I find it ironic that Israel was created because of the efforts to ethnically cleanse them in Europe - ghettos, walls,  seizing of land/property.  Now they have a country of their own,  what do they do,  build walls,  seize land and then periodically raid the ghetto...errr Gaza... err Golan ... err (space reserved for next incursion)  like the old saying "The meek shall inherit the Earth... but how meek will they be once they have it."

 

[Shec]

Why was infrastructure knocked out?  Here is an interesting and strategically sound rationale:

Analysis: Lebanese rules of war
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Herb Keinon, THE JERUSALEM POST Jun. 29, 2006

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The events of the last few weeks in and around Gaza - the rocket fire on Sderot, the roadside explosions, the Israeli air raids, the "collateral damage," the capture of an IDF soldier, the captors' psychological warfare - all lead to one sinking, unmistakable feeling: Lebanon is here.

The similarities between what is happening now in Gaza, less than a year after disengagement, and what happened for some 18 years in Lebanon are frightening. Yet it should come as no surprise - Hamas learned well from Hizbullah.

If the Palestinians from Gaza shoot rockets on Israel as though they were in Lebanon, if they plant roadside bombs as though they were in Lebanon, if they attack IDF outposts and kidnap soldiers as though they were in Lebanon, then they should not be too surprised when Israel treats the Palestinian Authority like Lebanon and acts accordingly.

Which is what the IDF did Wednesday by driving into Gaza, knocking out electricity and knocking down three bridges.

Hizbullah has thousands of rockets along the border with Israel, its military outposts are directly on the border facing IDF outposts, yet since Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon six years ago a tense quiet has reigned in the north.

It's not as if Hizbullah is uninterested in making our lives miserable, but rather that Israel has simply - through military action and clear diplomatic messages over the last six years - made it clear that, if Israel gets hit by Hizbullah, Lebanon and the Lebanese will pay the price.

Now that Hizbullah is part of the Lebanese political process, this is not a price the organization/political party wants to pay, because it is concerned that if the Lebanese suffer Hizbullah will be blamed. The result, if not exactly Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) - the doctrine that governed Russian-US relations during the Cold War - is what could be called a Balance of Mutual Threats.

Hizbullah doesn't attack Israel, or at least not much, because they know Israel can wreak devastation on southern Lebanon and that the Lebanese will then hold Hizbullah accountable. Israel's activities in Gaza Wednesday seem designed to create a similar situation in Gaza.
But there may be one big difference. Whereas Hizbullah is concerned that a devastating IDF blow in Lebanon could hurt its political standing, and the terror organization has as a result restrained itself, this may not be the case in Gaza.

It is not at all clear whether Israeli military action in Gaza hurts Hamas politically. In what to Israeli eyes seems like the logic-defying reality that is Gaza, it is not at all clear whether blowing up bridges and knocking out electricity in Gaza weakens public support for Hamas, or - paradoxically - whether it might in fact strengthen it.

Furthermore, it is not even clear that Hamas doesn't want some IDF action to further its victimization narrative in the world. Already some in the world are asking whether the capture of one Israeli soldier merits the type of military action we saw Wednesday. Besides, some are whispering, what about the 10,000 Palestinians prisoners held by Israel?

Before disengagement from Gaza, there were some dreamers who said that if everybody just played their cards right, Gaza could someday turn into the Hong Kong of the Middle East. Wrong. Try Lebanon, only more so.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Interesting article
The tunnel used in the raid would have taken at least 6 months to dig, perhaps longer to do it undetected. Hamas either ordered the raid or allowed it to happen. I suspect that they used the tunnel at this time to avoid the referendum being proposed by the PA. They expected a response by Israel which would effectively remove any desire to create a ceasefire and peace with them. The current state of affairs is much more in the comfort zone of Hamas than running the day to day affairs of government.

I have concerns about the long term impacts of the IDF strikes on the average Pal, many who would rather live and let live, but at the same time I understand the Israelis position, they give up land and are attacked even more, why bother negotiating.   

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

I find it ironic that Israel was created because of the efforts to ethnically cleanse them in Europe - ghettos, walls,  seizing of land/property.  Now they have a country of their own,  what do they do,  build walls,  seize land and then periodically raid the ghetto...errr Gaza... err Golan ... err (space reserved for next incursion)

Interesting (and unfortunately rather popular) interpretation of history ...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

milnewstbay

They buzzed the Syrians, not Jordon, but thanks for the links.

the zoomies must love doing that stuff.

 

[The Bread Guy]

DOOOOH!  Thx, Colin!

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19645805-2703,00.html

Israel warns: free soldier or PM dies
Middle East correspondent Martin Chulov
July 01, 2006
ISRAEL last night threatened to assassinate Palestinian Prime Minister Ismael Haniyeh if Hamas militants did not release a captured Israeli soldier unharmed.
The unprecedented warning was delivered to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in a letter as Israel debated a deal offered by Hamas to free Corporal Gilad Shalit.

It came as Israeli military officials readied a second invasion force for a huge offensive into Gaza.

Hamas's Gaza-based political leaders, including Mr Haniyeh, had already gone into hiding.

But last night's direct threat to kill Mr Haniyeh, a democratically elected head of state, sharply raised the stakes.

The bid to free Corporal Shalit was brokered by Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, who last night warned Hamas it faced severe consequences if it did not curb its "extreme stance" and described the growing conflict as a lightning rod for Palestinian vengeance.

Jerusalem has made no official comment, but Egyptian state media said Israel had found the offer unacceptable. Israel has not spelt out the terms demanded by Hamas, but earlier this week it refused to buy into talk of a prisoner swap.

Thousands of Hamas supporters protested in Gaza City late on Thursday over the arrest by Israeli forces of up to 32 Hamas MPs on the West Bank that day.

A Hamas spokesman said the group would never recognise Israel, in spite of a deal its leaders signed this week offering implicit recognition of the Jewish state in return for easing an economic blockade.

Israeli fighter jets bombed 20 targets in Gaza, including the Interior Ministry, which it said had been used by militants to stage meetings, while artillery hit the northern strip with 500 shells in the 24 hours until yesterday morning.

Jewish settler Eliyahu Asheri, who was murdered by militants this week, was buried on Thursday as leaders of the Popular Resistance Committees pledged to seize more hostages in the West Bank. No further word has emerged about another suspected Jewish hostage, Noach Moskowitz, who Israeli police said was found dead hours after Mr Asheri's remains were found.

Much of Gaza, including two main hospitals, was without power and running water as a UN aid chief warned that the 1.4 million residents of the strip were three days away from a humanitarian crisis.

"They are heading for the abyss unless they get electricity and fuel restored," said emergency relief co-ordinator Jan Egeland, who urged militants to free Corporal Shalit and stop firing rockets into Israel.

Residents complain that sonic booms caused by Israeli jets traumatise children and that shelling confines families to their homes.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has vowed the military will do all it can to avoid civilian deaths if a full-scale assault is launched.

Mr Olmert said the decision to invade northern Gaza had already been delayed to allow Mr Mubarak's negotiations to continue.

The arrested Hamas legislators have been sent to security prisons and many will stand trial on terrorism offences. The detentions have hurt Hamas's already limited ability to govern and are likely to force a regime change.

Israel claims it has intelligence about the area where Corporal Shalit is held, but has been unable to pinpoint the exact location. Mr Olmert said the military would leave the strip if he was unconditionally and safely returned.

Egypt and the neighbouring Arab states of Jordan and Lebanon fear a war between Israel and the Palestinians could lead to uprisings within their own borders, which house many Palestinian refugees.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=11486

Israel threatens to assassinate Hamas PM
6/12/2006 10:00:00 AM GMT


Israel’s Defense Minister Amir Peretz warned that Israel could target top Hamas officials as an armed confrontation between the two sides escalated in the Gaza Strip with more air strikes and cross-border attacks, The Chicago Tribune reported.

Hamas ended a 16-month truce on Friday after an Israeli air strike on a Gaza beach killed seven members of a Palestinian family.

Israel resumed its attacks on Gaza despite the civilian deaths, killing two Hamas fighters and wounding three others on Sunday. 

Also Sunday, Hamas fired a number of homemade Qassam rockets at Israel, wounding an Israeli in the southern town of Sderot.

A Hamas lawmaker vowed to continue the attacks on Israel.

“Blood for blood and resistance for violence," said Hamas lawmaker Mushir al-Masri. “The occupation will realize that the blood of the martyrs is dear. ... The enemy will pay a price."

On the other hand, Peretz warned that Israel could target senior Hamas figures, including Palestinian Prime Minister Ismael Haneya. 

“No one has an insurance policy," Peretz said. “No framework, no title, no status will provide protection for an element that we find is involved in planning or execution of the firing," he added.

A top member of Israel’s Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's Kadima party also threatened Haneya with assassination if the movement continues attacks on Israel, Reuters reported.

"Yassin and Rantissi are waiting for you, Haneya, if you implement the same stance of liquidating Jews,” said Tzachi Hanegbi, chairman of parliament's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee.

Hanegbi was referring to Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, a co-founder of Hamas, and Abdel-Aziz al-Rantissi, another leader of the resistance group, who were both assassinated by Israel in Gaza in 2004.

Hanegbi is not a member of the prime minister’s inner circle. But his comments, including a prediction that "confrontation between Israel and Hamas is inevitable", followed a threat from Olmert, who told his cabinet last week that Israel “will know when and how to deal” with Hamas’ recent attacks.


Speaking to reporters in Gaza, Prime Minister Ismail Haneya dismissed Hanegbi's threat as indicative of "a type of political madness from some Israeli leaders."

Hamas, which formed the Palestinian government in March after winning a January election, is locked in a struggle with President Mahmoud Abbas over a statehood plan, devised by jailed Palestinian resistance fighters, that implicitly recognizes Israel.

To overcome Hamas’ opposition to a two-state solution, Abbas called a national referendum on the document on July 26.

But Hamas said it would ask parliament on Monday to declare the referendum illegal, a move that would escalate tensions between the government and Abbas, who was scheduled to hold more talks with Haniyeh to resolve the dispute.

Meanwhile, two prisoners who helped draft the manifesto, Abdel-Khalez al-Natsheh of Hamas and Bassam al-Saadi of Islamic Jihad, withdrew their support for the plan, saying that it had been exploited by Abbas to promote his political agenda, according to a statement issued in Gaza. 

In a seperate development, an Israeli government agency offered for sale 54 plots of land for the construction of homes near the large West Bank settlement of Ariel.

The move is in line with Israel's plan to strengthen major Jewish settlements in the occpied West Bank,  which contradicts the U.S.-backed peace "road map" that calls for a halt to such construction in all lands needed by the Palestinians for a future state.

 

[warpig]

When Shec quoted that Jerusalem Post article, he completely reversed the rationality of Israel’s incursion, or invasion if you will, by inferring, as has others here, that this is a problem solving action of some forethought. If the Captured Corporal is found alive, then most will argue that there has been a justified rational for the violence. If the Corporal is not found, or found dead after the military pressure got close, then what?

Shec allowed a lot of incorrect opinions regarding the Israeli incursion into Lebanon go when he allowed the article in. Because of the Israeli incursion, Lebanon fell under direct Syrian rule for over 20 years. It can be argued that the resulting Islamic domination of Lebanon, the collapse of the Christian Militias sponsored by Israel, the costly, bloody and futile occupation that left nearly 20.000 dead, including nearly 700 Israeli soldiers, and the immergence of Hamas and Hezbollah are all the result of the aborted invasion, which lasted nearly 2 years.

I ask, what will Israel do after the Corporal is found? With most of the moderates in the PA cabinet “arrested” and held in Israeli jails, what control of the radical Palestinian factions will be exercised? And why should the Palestinians await the return of their kidnapped elected officials in humiliation? It will rightly seem to them that after starving the PA of funds, and now rubbling their infrastructure, the West will demands the Palestinians to just sit on their hands and wish for better times. I can give a fair guess as to how this is going to play out. Badly.

What is Israel to do now, that it has assumed responsibility for Palestine? Public opinion in Israel will not tolerate a long, bloody occupation. It can only be a matter of days before the Islamist factions begin to target Israeli soldiers with suicide bombs. Its very hard to kill Israelis inside their defences and extremely easy to do it when they expose themselves. This is the exposure Israel’s enemies have been looking for.

Too many commentators here have engaged a rather thoughtless attitude here, and a bravado “Kick-Their-Scum-Sucking-Butt” attitude is fine when watching Red Dawn but hardly rational in this case.

Think I’m the only one who thinks this?
http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/Harris_Michael/2006/06/30/1660870.html

 

[tamouh]

Think I’m the only one who thinks this?

You're pretty much right on the point. In the end, when Israeli army does something, they truly do it in the sense of strategic military point of view. They really don't care or consider the fall out politics afterwards nor they calculate the results of their actions. This is a major criticism of the IDF even from inside Israel.

 

[1feral1]

  They really don't care or consider the fall out politics afterwards nor they calculate the results of their actions.

Well, at the end of the day if HAMAS or some other cowardly organisation to blame, would not have dug the tunnel under the border, atatcked and deliberatly killed some soldiers and did this kidnapping, the IDF would not be doing what thye are doing right now, would they!

The cowards of Hamas have only themselves to blame, no one else.

lets hope the IDF shows no mercy, and pounds these sub-humans into dust. I have No sympathy for them at all.

 

[tamouh]

lets hope the IDF shows no mercy, and pounds these sub-humans into dust. I have No sympathy for them at all.

Ya sub-humans living in a sub-society under the control of a sub-state that has a sub-army....that is israel.

 

[1feral1]

Ya sub-humans living in a sub-society under the control of a sub-state that has a sub-army....that is israel.

Well Tamouh, yet again you have acheived a new high in low.

You take your pro-islamcic terrorist attitude and shove it!

Remember, if you are so passionate in your beliefs, as said before, vent your frustrations out over there, and take your culture of hatred, violence, and your anti-westrern mentality with you.

Canada is the wrong country and this is the wrong site to advertise where your loyality TRULY is.


Wes

 

[tamouh]

Well Tamouh, yet again you have acheived a new high in low.

I'm not the one who is labelling human as sub-human and 'pounds these sub-humans into dust'.

Canada is the wrong country and this is the wrong site to advertise where your loyality TRULY is

Buddy, keep your extreme ideology to yourself. I live here and contribute to this society as much as you do. I also don't believe there were a label on this forum for 'right-wing extremists only'.

Enough with the personal attacks, you have your opinion on a matter and I have mine.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Actually I'm locking this untill morning and giving both of you a "shot across the bow".

Both of you must be more specific in who you are labeling............

EDIT: and this goes for any other thread this evening.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Re-opened

 

[paracowboy]

Shec allowed a lot of incorrect opinions regarding the Israeli incursion into Lebanon go when he allowed the article in. Because of the Israeli incursion, Lebanon fell under direct Syrian rule for over 20 years.

nice revisionism. The Israeli incursion was a direct result of the Syrian-backed Palestinian invasion.

 

[tomahawk6]

Israel will end up having to crush Hamas to the advantage of Fatah.