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IDF Back Into Gaza for Kidnapped Cpl.

tamouh said:
I think this incident is a great opportunity for Hamas to play politics. I mean this is the greatest publicity Hamas can pull off and Israel is giving them a great opportunity here.
I think that Hamas should make this last as long as possible. They are getting great puplicity now by all our incompetant medias... "9 Palestinian 'activists' [no no, they are not islamic terrorists, but 'activists'] were killed by the IDF wich also destroyed 3 Palestinian 'schools' [no no, these schools are not some terrorist trainning centers, but some normal schools] today..." 
 
they'd never pull it off, though. They've spent so much time and effort into brain-washing their children into worshipping at a cult of Death, that they no longer have any control over their own populace. Palestine is lost. It can never be civilized again.

Agree completely, in fact, I believe the whole Hamas movement was the direct result of 1980s Intifida and most likely the people who are running the military wings now were young teens or early 20s in the 1980s. So look 20 yrs from now if the situation continues at this pace, you'll expect the next generation to be more tactical and persistant.

zipperhead_cop
That would be some pretty impressive mind altering, since any Israeli has been raised on a steady diet of Palestinian murder and terror. 
Hamas won't compromise because they don't want to look weak.  They also want to look like victims to the other Arab countries, and thus draw in some more support.  If some tool is willing to strap a pack of C-4 and ball bearings and detonate on a bus, what do they care if the tanks are rolling through the camps blowing stuff away?  Being a martyr is a state to be pursued, not avoided.

Agree, though Hamas is not gaining any significant support from the Arab nations. They're gaining support in the Arabic and Muslim streets, but little it any government except to the Egyptians attempting to defuse the situation.
 
tamouh said:
Agree, though Hamas is not gaining any significant support from the Arab nations. They're gaining support in the Arabic and Muslim streets, but little it any government except to the Egyptians attempting to defuse the situation.

I thought they never enjoyed support from the other Arab nations, even when they were the PLO?
IMO what they have there is a government that was elected for the wrong reasons, and now that someone was trying to actually settle things out, they have to get back to what they know (and love).  I have every belief that Hamas could give a rats arse about the well being of the Palestinian people.  To them, anyone that isn't an active militant is just cannon fodder, only useful in as much as they can get a photo of a dead child on the news to outrage people.  As well, we all know that Hamas gets funding from other terrorist supporters, so they have to "stick it to the Jews" to keep up their end of the bargin. 
For that matter, if they eventually recognized Israel and got around to the business of peace, then the regular people would perhaps see Israel as not the big enemy next door.  If life started to improve over there, and the normal citizens were able to think in terms of actually expecting happiness, that would be counter productive to Hamas. 
I agree that there is a cyclic nature of this situation.  Every time Israel reacts by sending in the tanks and annexing an area (even for a short time) that goes towards supporting Hamas' objective of vilifying them and focusing attention on how terribly brutal their tactics are.  I don't understand why no one ever says "maybe those fu^kwits shouldn't have nabbed the soldier in the first place".  Everyone gets so hung up on Israels reaction but why isn't anything said about what they are reacting to?  And why does it seem that every time this happens (terrorist act, massive retaliation) that people seem shocked and amazed for the first time, every time.  "Hellooo!  Mr. Hamas/Dumass?  Simple cause and effect, fella". 
I feel bad for that poor troop that is bound and blindfolded somewhere.  He is a pawn in a big game right now, and I am afraid no good with come of this for him.  However, that doesn't change the fact that Hamas needs to be stomped into the dust and erased from existence.  Palestine would be better off with a helium balloon running it.
 
in fairness, HAMAS funds/runs hospitals and schools. They provided a fairly reasonable political and legal infrastructure in areas they controlled. They built playgrounds, and assisted in the economies of the areas under their control. One could almost believe they care about the welfare of the average Palestinian.

Until you realize they brainwash their children into committing murder and suicide.
 
Interesting article that for me anyway reinforces my own view of the conflict. PM Barak offered Arafat 95% of the territory he demanded and yet it wasnt enough,because Arafat wanted Israel. Sharon gave Gaza back unilaterally. The Palestinians failed to establish civil control of the area and began to use it as a launching pad for rocket attacks on Israel. We should stop negotiating with people that want nothing less than the complete surrender of Israel. Let Israel defend themselves and get out of the way.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1150885956191
 
This is Barak's Generous Offer in map details :

http://www.gush-shalom.org/generous/generous.html
 
tomahawk6 said:
.......... PM Barak offered Arafat 95% of the territory he demanded and yet it wasnt enough,because Arafat wanted Israel. Sharon gave Gaza back unilaterally. The Palestinians failed to establish civil control of the area and began to use it as a launching pad for rocket attacks on Israel. We should stop negotiating with people that want nothing less than the complete surrender of Israel. Let Israel defend themselves and get out of the way.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1150885956191

That has been the best 4 line summary of the TRUE FACTS I have read in a long time.
 
The CBC is just posting comments from the leader of Hamas in which he is stating that Cpl. Shalit is a POW and will be kept as a prisoner.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/10/hamas-pow.html?ref=rss

So then I suppose that Hamas should not be acting surprised that the IDF is now conducting operations back in Gaza. Afterall, if you admit to planning an attack and abduction, the Israeli's are well within their rights to retaliate right?? I mean, that's WAR right Hamas?
 
Interesting that Hamas can decide when and when not to apply the Laws of Armed Conflict....
 
tomahawk6 said:
PM Barak offered Arafat 95% of the territory he demanded and yet it wasnt enough,because Arafat wanted Israel.
Not exactly, they have FAAAR greater ambitions:
http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_yasserghalban.asx
Or maybe they just abused from from the Afghan opium...  ;D
 
Or maybe they just abused from from the Afghan opium...

LOL...this is the worst propoganda clip i've ever seen in my life, laying on a couch and giving a "victorious" like sppech.
 
Israel sends tanks into Lebanon after Hezbollah attack

Wednesday, July 12, 2006; Posted: 2:57 p.m. EDT (18:57 GMT)

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Hezbollah guerrillas killed seven Israeli soldiers and captured two more Wednesday, triggering Israeli airstrikes and military raids inside southern Lebanon, Israeli officials said.

The Israeli military said its land, air and naval forces had hit at least eight Hezbollah bases and five bridges in the southern Lebanon.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's Cabinet was expected to approve more military action Wednesday evening, as Israel warned it would unleash its "utmost power" to retrieve its soldiers.

Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah told reporters that "direct negotiations" would be the only way to return the soldiers and that their capture was "our natural, only and logical right."

He demanded the soldiers be swapped for "our prisoners" held by Israel. A demand for Israel to release Palestinians from its jails has been made by Palestinian militants who captured another Israeli soldier, Cpl. Gilad Shalit, last month. (Watch gunfire and smoke as Israeli troops enter southern Lebanon -- 2:55)

Nasrallah said the two soldiers taken Wednesday had been moved to "a faraway place."

Israel has exchanged prisoners with Hezbollah before, most recently in 2004. But this time, Israeli leaders have said there will be no deals.

Olmert told reporters that the killings and abductions were "not a terror attack but an operation of a sovereign state without any reason or provocation."

Olmert said the Hezbollah attacks were an "act of war" and blamed the Lebanese government, which he said would be held responsible.

The prime minister promised a "very painful and far-reaching" response, The Associated Press reported.


There have been only sporadic border clashes since Israel withdrew its forces from southern Lebanon in 2000 after 22 years of occupation.

Three of the seven soldiers who were killed Wednesday died during fighting with Hezbollah along the Israeli-Lebanese border, and four were killed later as Israeli troops moved into southern Lebanon, said Israel Defense Forces.

The Israel Defense Forces urged citizens in northern villages to take shelter as the violence escalated. Four Israeli civilians and six soldiers have been wounded in the fighting so far, the IDF reported.

In a claim broadcast on Hezbollah's television channel, Hezbollah said it had "destroyed" an Israeli tank crossing into the region.

Thunder and smoke
The valleys along the Israeli-Lebanese border thundered with artillery fire and clouds of blue-gray smoke could be seen rising above Lebanese positions.

Israeli forces, observers said, were bombing roads, bridges and guerrilla positions in southern Lebanon in an attempt to prevent guerrillas from moving the troops deeper into Lebanon.

Israeli forces are also responding to rocket attacks fired by Hezbollah into northern Israel, according to the army.

Maj. Gen. Udi Adam, the chief of Israel's Northern Command, told reporters that Israel had "expanded and comprehensive plans" to battle Hezbollah in Lebanon, and said dozens of Hezbollah targets had been hit already.

"This affair is between Israel and the state of Lebanon," he said. "Where to attack? Once it is inside Lebanon, everything is legitimate -- not just southern Lebanon, not just the line of Hezbollah posts."

Hezbollah, Lebanon, Syria and Iran
U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice condemned Hezbollah for its action and singled out Syria, which she said has a "special responsibility to use its influence to support a positive outcome."

State Department officials said the United States recognizes that there is little the Lebanese government can do to control Hezbollah.

While the United States sees Lebanon's government, which includes Hezbollah in its Cabinet, as an important interlocutor with Hezbollah, State Department officials have said they recognize that Lebanon does not have the capacity to expand its authority into the south, where Hezbollah has control.

These officials said the United States is holding Syria and Iran responsible for support of Hezbollah.

'We will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years'
Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Dan Halutz told Israeli Channel 10, "If the soldiers are not returned we will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years."

It is the latest skirmish between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon, whose forces traded cross-border fire in late May following the assassination of an Islamic Jihad official in the southern Lebanese city of Sidon.

Mahmoud Majzoub, also known as Abu Hamza, was killed in a car bombing, which Islamic Jihad blamed on Israel. Israel denied any involvement in the incident.

Hezbollah is designated a terrorist group by the United States and Israel but is a significant player in Lebanon's fractious politics.

Israel set up a security buffer zone in southern Lebanon from 1978 until 2000.

CNN's Elise Labott contributed to this report.

Copyright 2006 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.
 
gee,  does escalating the conflict play exactly into some people's plans?  Yes.  Can the Israelis respond in any other way? Not really.  (they could take off the kid gloves and level every building in Gaza - after giving notice but that's just bad PR)  Is Israel showing a hundred thousand times more restraint than Canada would?  More than we would and more than we have.  I say the hawks on both sides are itching for this conflict,  but I don't think it will happen full scale... with that said I'm still glad we're not in the Golan Heights any more  ;D 

Am I a bad person for not feeling too sorry for the Palestinians, as a group,  who elected that government that brought this on them?  I want to cheer for the under dog so much, (the Irish in me)  but I just can't in this case.  With that said,  every time I want to go  "wow" at the fireworks on TV I remember http://www.rootsweb.com/~fianna/history/east1916.html 

 
Hezbollah lunched about 100 rockets today on civilian targets in Israel, killing 2 and wonding about 100. Israel said it will bomb Beirut if the terrorists want to test Tzahal's will.

http://www.infolive.tv/index.php?chgLang=40
 
Consider this

The snatch likely took months of planning.

The tunnel used in Gaza to attack the post would also take months to dig and plan.

Egypt’s President was quoted as saying that “other unnamed parties” were pressuring Hamas not to accept a deal to hand over the prisoner just a day so before the Hezbollah attack.

Syria just signed a pact with Iran to help each other, Iran is god father of Hezbollah, who also wants to gain a foothold in Palestine. If the IDF weakens Hamas, they could step in.

So one could suppose that:

A) Hamas and Hezbollah planned this whole thing.
B) Hezbollah launched a previously planned attack to take advantage of the situation 
 
Colin P said:
Consider this

The snatch likely took months of planning.

The tunnel used in Gaza to attack the post would also take months to dig and plan.

Egypt’s President was quoted as saying that “other unnamed parties” were pressuring Hamas not to accept a deal to hand over the prisoner just a day so before the Hezbollah attack.

Syria just signed a pact with Iran to help each other, Iran is god father of Hezbollah, who also wants to gain a foothold in Palestine. If the IDF weakens Hamas, they could step in.

So one could suppose that:

A) Hamas and Hezbollah planned this whole thing.
B) Hezbollah launched a previously planned attack to take advantage of the situation 
don't be absurd. Only the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy could create a plan that machiavellian. It's obviously Halliburton's fault.
 
Colin P said:
A) Hamas and Hezbollah planned this whole thing.
B) Hezbollah launched a previously planned attack to take advantage of the situation 

One could also suppose that Hamas and Hezbollah have a burning desire to be bombed back into the stone age. 
 
paracowboy said:
don't be absurd. Only the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy could create a plan that machiavellian. It's obviously Halliburton's fault.

;D
 
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