Ignorance of civvies...

[Recon_Guardsman]

Hey everyone, its my first post here so bear with me please. I just wanted to mention an even that happened the other day and see what kind of opinions I get from you. I was in a discussion in my world issues class, and we were covering the topic of child soldiers. The teacher was saying that anyone in the military under 18 is a child soldier, and we all came to the sensible conclusion that the use of child soldiers is wrong because the children are not mature enough for it... that it causes problems in their development and so on (this after watching a documentary of kids in Africa who had been used as child soldiers and now have PTSD). Well, the class then came to the understanding that because im not 18 (im a 17 year old reservist in Toronto), I am not mature enough to be a soldier. I am also a 'pawn' (their exact word) in the government's plans.

How does everyone feel about people younger than 18 being in the CF in general? Any good stories of civvies being totally ignorant?

 

[Kirkhill]

Recon_guardsman:

The Queen and her government both consider you old enough to be a soldier.  I am betting that the guys that signed you up and serve alongside you consider you old enough to be a soldier.

Question:

If you are insufficiently mature to make a decision as to whether you should be a soldier, what makes your classmates (presumably of the same age) qualified to decide you shouldn't be a soldier?

 

[monika]

Didn't you need your parent's permission to join the reserves? In any case, I think there is a *huge* difference between living in a free society and *choosing* to enlist at 17 and being 12 and being forced into fighting

Just to be a pain in the arse, you could always point out that if you're not mature enough fort soldiering, they're not old enough for sex.

 

[Kendrick]

Legal age of sexual consent is what, 14?  I guess that's better for them.

 

[Inspir]

How does everyone feel about people younger than 18 being in the CF in general? Any good stories of civvies being totally ignorant?

I remember an issue similar to this on the news about raising Alberta's legal drinking age to 21.

As my local MLA said:
"if the young men and women of our nation can fight a war at only 17 then I ask the government why they don't lower the drinking age limit to that"

Well put I thought  ;D

 

[pbi]

Didn't you need your parent's permission to join the reserves? In any case, I think there is a *huge* difference between living in a free society and *choosing* to enlist at 17 and being 12 and being forced into fighting

I think this sums it up very well. The child soldiers that we talk about are forced into service, treated like slaves, and generally have no say over their own affairs. They cannot voluntarily leave the service they are in.

A 17 year old Canadian reservist is a completely different case. You cannot join without your parents' permission, you will not be required to serve (short of a general mobilization which has not happened in Canada since WWII), you cannot even be forced to attend training at your Res unit, and you can leave pretty well any time you feel like it. You will not go overseas until well after your 18th birthday, since it would take at least that long in the Res for you to reach a training level at which a right-minded CO would permit you to go overseas.

Like many students (and, unfortunately, like many of their very young and very inexperienced teachers) your peers are engaging in the kind of baseless, "black and white" thinking that ignores the facts and details that make up the real world. Good luck in fighting the good fight: all of us here at Army.ca are in support.

Cheers

 

[Recon_Guardsman]

Thanks for the help boys (meant unisexually), ill bring those topics up next time the issue comes up. That drinking age thing has always bothered me.... you can drive at 16, have sex at 14, vote at 18, but join the army at 16 as well?

In any case, I dont know about all of you, but I find that the training we do is in itself very maturing. We all go in knowing that weapons are there to kill people, but for me at least, it really clicked once I started putting rounds downrange. Likewise with the gas hut, or grenades, or getting bumped at 2 am, etc.

 

[GO!!!]

Good points brought up here, I would also add;

-A significant number of troops under the age of 18 volunteered to fight for Canada in two world wars - with positive effect (we won) was the government of the day "using them"?

-Finally, state, that YOU are one of the "child" soldiers that he/she finds so revolting, and that you are simultaneously able to think enough for this class, and then turn into a mindless, homicidal pawn of the government on Saturday! The silence will be deafening.

I had this identical argument out in an international relations class a few years ago. The prof called me a liar and demanded to see my military ID. I showed it to him, and then submitted to the class that I was old enough to have sex with whomever I please, smoke, consume alcohol, operate a motor vehicle, be employed, pay taxes, and attend university - but not to defend my country.

I was kicked out, but the dean gave me a mark of "WD".

Also, keep in mind that many University Profs (especially in the Social Sciences and Arts) inhabit a world of academia, co - eds and cabarets. None of the decisions they make on a daily basis really have any bearing on the real world, so they are free to make ridiculous assertations - because their actions have no consequences. This is a fundamental tenet of higher learning, the unhindered development of ideas, but just get your ducks in a row before you argue your case in class. I have yet to see a prof "take it well" when one of his declarations is picked apart by a student.

 

[Hot Lips]

Recon_Guardsman,

Uni means one????
Anyway, I have a girlfriend who went Reg Force @ 17 out of highschool. 
She required her parents signature to do so.  She has been in 17 years and wouldn't change a thing she has done for the world.
Maturity is not a number...I know some 40 year old men that have not attained the status of mature yet (I am sure there are women as well).
I wish you well...I was out on my own @ 17 and it didn't do me a bit of harm...perhaps that is why I am so independent today.
I wish I had taken the opportunity @ 17 to become a member of the CF 

HL

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

While my own experiences were not as extreme as GO's, I can vouch for that type of thinking at university.  GO has the right of it as for the course of action.  Get your ducks in a row and defend your vital ground.  Just don't think you'll change the prof's mind.  You might, however, get some students to think a little if you yourself remain calm and don't get emotional.

Cheers,

2B

 

[Jarnhamar]

Fuck em if they can't take a joke

I wouldn't even bother arguing to your class mates or teachers.  It's a waste of time.  They have thei remind set and not much you can do will change that.
15 year olds fought in ww1 & 2 helping win the war so future students can choose what they learn in school bla bla bla. They don't care
They are always going to come up with some counter argument or point and even there is no way in hell they can argue one of your sound and intelligent points, they will find a way.

Think PBI is right on the money. There is a vast difference between children forced into combat in africa and a 17 year old canadian citizen volenteering for the reserves. If someone is trying to connect the two then they are doing the starndard university retarded arguing some silly semantics thing.

Let them live in their own little world. Take a book to class and read it instead. When the time comes defend your little world and theirs.

 

[orange.paint]

I A 17 year old Canadian reservist is a completely different case. You cannot join without your parents' permission, you will not be required to serve (short of a general mobilization which has not happened in Canada since WWII), you cannot even be forced to attend training at your Res unit, and you can leave pretty well any time you feel like it. You will not go overseas until well after your 18th birthday, since it would take at least that long in the Res for you to reach a training level at which a right-minded CO would permit you to go overseas.

What about reg force PBI? I distinctly remember being in petawawa for my 18th birthday ;D

 

[probum non poenitet]

It never hurts to state your truth, calmly and clearly.
Even if it doesn't look like it's sinking in, it may actually be.

Some people (espicailly teenagers) will be self-conscious about publicly defending your argument.

For others, months and maybe years down the road, they will remember your example and come to understand your way of thinking ... or at least partly so. You will probably never know.

To more pracitcal matters: Tell your 17 year-old friends to take care of their knees and start buying mutual funds now!

 

[Korus]

But that's just the way it is.. You'll encounter people who are for or against the army wherever you go.. Those against it will use anything to try and ridicule the army and it's members, such as you being only 17 years old.

As for Uni's being full of left wing nutcases, I took a more 'right winged' program in Uni (Engineering), so I didn't catch quite as much flack on that side of campus as I did when I was on the artsy side of campus.. Though there were defiantly still some opinionated idiots. However, one of my professors was probably one of the most supportive people I knew when I volunteered to deploy to Afghanistan right after graduation

 

[Recon_Guardsman]

I think in many respects im lucky in that. Three teachers at the school are officers, a lot of the staff and the principal are very supportive. It even has an RMC-ish military program. But the civvie students who go there are some of the worst iv seen. For the most part, they live in a total bubble, where all that matters is marks and getting stoned as often as possible. Ah well.

Anyone have any 'interesting' arguments posed to them about the CF?

 

[blacktriangle]

"It even has an RMC-ish military program. But the civvie students who go there are some of the worst iv seen. For the most part, they live in a total bubble, where all that matters is marks and getting stoned as often as possible."

It isn't St. Andrews, is it?  ;D

 

[Gunnerlove]

What is wrong with drawing a line in the sand and saying we will not deploy anyone younger than 18?
As for joining and training at 16 with parental consent I do not see a problem.

 

[William Webb Ellis]

I was 17 when I joined and when I came home with the paperwork my dad asked "what took so long"....I guess that's what national service will do to you..

I faced the same type of "discussion" with fellow student's when at school.  However, I in hindsight I should have seen it coming from a "Peace and Conflict Resolution Class".

All you can do is deal/discuss it with those who are actually interested in learning and expanding their mind (other than on weekends, not that there's anything wrong with that).  The other, F*CK EM......

If they are interested in truly learning they will listen to you points, consider them and then decide if they will adjust their opinion.

Cheers

 

[Centurian1985]

As usual, liberal intellectuals choose to twist teh meaning of words to suit their own ends.

A 'child soldier', as defined by their popular use in African and Asian countries, is a youth under the age of 16 (worldwide standard of youth, not the legal definition in a western country!), was forcibly inducted into a military force to act as bearer, prositute, or cannon fodder.   

This does not happen in Canada. Our youth have free choice over whether they wish to join the military AND must gain consent of their parent/guardian.

(No, I wont get into an argument over national level propoganda and its glorification of the military, etc. etc.; the movies that youth watch and books on war that they read and computer games they play have much more impact than any government message).

Those who do not understand the difference are misinformed. Those who deliberately confuse the difference are following their own agendas.

 

[pbi]

What about reg force PBI? I distinctly remember being in petawawa for my 18th birthday ;D

You are right, although these days I believe most recruits into the RegF are considerably older than 18. But, that's not really Recon Guardsman's situation, and that's what I was trying to respond to.

Cheers