Indirect Fires Modernization Project - C3/M777 Replacement

[SeaKingTacco]

I guess having working guns is an issue...

The 105mm might be a problem, as well as generating gun dets for that duty while also converting Reg and Res Arty units to other weapons in that period.

Honestly, Parks Canada has had almost 60 years to figure this out. Almost everywhere else in the world Parks or highways staff do this job.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Honestly, Parks Canada has had almost 60 years to figure this out. Almost everywhere else in the world Parks or highways staff do this job.

And they tried for part of a year in the 90s.
But they used 106RR. We stored their ammo in Wainwright (a few eyebrows were raised when a couple of pallets came arrived a few years after the weapon left service).
Apparently it didn't do the job very well and Canada just fell back on the old system instead of improving the new one.

 

[MilEME09]

The 105mm might be a problem, as well as generating gun dets for that duty while also converting Reg and Res Arty units to other weapons in that period.

Honestly, Parks Canada has had almost 60 years to figure this out. Almost everywhere else in the world Parks or highways staff do this job.

Also a tech issue, they have been trying for years for calgary class A techs to take over maintenance on those C3s. The problem? Every C3 maintenance course the past 8 years has been cancelled, and this year just did too. Currently that course only ran twice since first created, creating only around 8 techs nationally in the class A world.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

And they tried for part of a year in the 90s.
But they used 106RR. We stored their ammo in Wainwright (a few eyebrows were raised when a couple of pallets came arrived a few years after the weapon left service).
Apparently it didn't do the job very well and Canada just fell back on the old system instead of improving the new one.

That is funny.

 

[MilEME09]

And they tried for part of a year in the 90s.
But they used 106RR. We stored their ammo in Wainwright (a few eyebrows were raised when a couple of pallets came arrived a few years after the weapon left service).
Apparently it didn't do the job very well and Canada just fell back on the old system instead of improving the new one.

I look forward to the C3 retiring and a M777 starts being used.......

 

[NavyShooter]

I'll inject an idea here.

Why not grab some drones with the ability to drop HE and use those to deliver the charges?

Happening daily in Ukraine....maybe the CAF could use this as a testing ground.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We could ask Korea to toss in some of their M101's in reserve, which I think they have some 1200 of. I have no doubt they can also supply parts. Using a M777 would require new gun rings and data conversion. On the bright side we get more experience firing them in winter conditions.

If the artillery is struggling to meet this mission, it does not speak well of their abilty to plan and forecast both in regards to personal and equipment.

 

[FJAG]

I did two tours of AVCON as a brand new subbie and there isn't a better job to teach leadership to a young officer then sending them up into the mountains on their own with a gun detachment. It gives you everything - equipment maintenance, personnel problems, maintenance of morale during slack periods, hot and heavy operational firing that can last for days on end and expend hundreds of rounds, dealing with other government departments.

It's also fun and challenging for the troops.

I guess having working guns is an issue...

The 105mm might be a problem, as well as generating gun dets for that duty while also converting Reg and Res Arty units to other weapons in that period.

There are and will be enough guns. Assuming that the 105mm calibre will go out of service as a training gun as planned, then there will be enough serviceable parts available for a long time yet. Ceremonial salute guns need very few replacement parts and can be sources. The AVCON guns have been slightly modified for their role but those mods can be transferred to a replacement gun.

Honestly, Parks Canada has had almost 60 years to figure this out. Almost everywhere else in the world Parks or highways staff do this job.

I don't know what the financial arrangement between Parks Canada and DND are, but a 24/7 on call staff for 26 weeks of the year will be very pricey. Far pricier than an eight-person army detachment.

Also a tech issue, they have been trying for years for calgary class A techs to take over maintenance on those C3s. The problem? Every C3 maintenance course the past 8 years has been cancelled, and this year just did too. Currently that course only ran twice since first created, creating only around 8 techs nationally in the class A world.

That's a very real problem but easily cured if a course is run while the gun is still in general service. 1 CAB will be in Edmonton and is supposed to get a service battalion. Build it into the plan while you can.

I look forward to the C3 retiring and a M777 starts being used.......

The plan is for the M777s to probably go into long-term storage once enough SPs come on line. Based on the way the army usually does these things the skill set for maintaining M777s will deteriorate the same way as it did for the M109s. (I guess we could always contract it out to 10 Mountain in Fort Drum. )

I'll inject an idea here.

Why not grab some drones with the ability to drop HE and use those to deliver the charges?

Happening daily in Ukraine....maybe the CAF could use this as a testing ground.

About half the shoots done up there are "storm shoots" which would make flying drones (or other aircraft) at those elevations nigh unto impossible. There are places where avalanche control is done by dropping dynamite out of helicopters but not where keeping the major east-west highway and railway link through the mountains open. That can be done through quieter periods like the "clean up shoots" done at Rogers once the storms have passed.

My short $0.02. The CAF keeps going on and on about being seen to be relevant to the nation not just in time of war but also to provide certain military skill sets that are of value to the country in peacetime, be it flood control, fire fighting, urban rescue etc. AVCON is probably the prime example of this type of service. For half the year the army helps to keep commerce flowing across the mountains. I've seen avalanches there. If you don't bring them down while small, they will cover the highway or railroad to a point where it could take up to a week of heavy machinery to dig it out. Sure. You could tell Parks to come up with a solution but let's be honest - we can always get Class Bs for this and even a RegF lieutenant and sergeant for half a year. Make it a 2 Div duty tied in with 1 CAB. AVCON is worth the effort and pays dividends when the MND needs another minister's support in cabinet. August of 2027 is too tight of a timeline in any event. This is either a cop out or DND is angling for a better MOU. I fear DND isn't smart enough for the latter - it's just someone trying to shake off a very tiny maintenance and personnel burden.

 

[KevinB]

I have a solution.

Clearly a job for the Infantry.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

There should be both course for maintaining and using every gun system we have, even if the majority are in storage. One would think that is the purpose of the "School for Artillery".

 

[FJAG]

There should be both course for maintaining and using every gun system we have, even if the majority are in storage. One would think that is the purpose of the "School for Artillery".

The big word is - priorities. The army is the living embodiment of the squeaky wheel getting the grease. As things drop down on the priority list ever smaller resources are allocated to it. M109s and ADATS are the prime examples of the last quarter century.

The RCAS isn't responsible for life cycle management of the equipment. It merely manages the training of gunners on the equipment. The dirty secret here is that a C3 used simply for saluting requires absolutely minimal maintenance and you can train six folks to run the gun in an afternoon. It's like surgery - see one, do one, teach one.

The problem here is that for AVCON you will now have only one gun and maybe one or two backups that have to be maintained in firing condition and have a crew that can properly do live fire with it - that takes more than an afternoon (but less than a week) - plus you need to keep 105mm ammo in the inventory somewhere. That's a pimple. The army hates "wasting" resources on pimples.

 

[MilEME09]

There should be both course for maintaining and using every gun system we have, even if the majority are in storage. One would think that is the purpose of the "School for Artillery".

Issue is for the C3, until 2015 the regular force maintained it. Then came STARS and the push to have the reserves do more. However this mindset of the reserves train the reserves doesnt work if its a piece of kit that you dont have reserves qualified on. Alas because its the very last mod for a wpns techs DP2, it regularly gets canceled. Thanks to thats, I am 17 years in and still not fully qualified as a tech. Adding up all my time on courses in Borden, ive actually spent more time at the school then a regular force tech, but I am less qualified. Funny how that works.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The big word is - priorities. The army is the living embodiment of the squeaky wheel getting the grease. As things drop down on the priority list ever smaller resources are allocated to it. M109s and ADATS are the prime examples of the last quarter century.

The RCAS isn't responsible for life cycle management of the equipment. It merely manages the training of gunners on the equipment. The dirty secret here is that a C3 used simply for saluting requires absolutely minimal maintenance and you can train six folks to run the gun in an afternoon. It's like surgery - see one, do one, teach one.

The problem here is that for AVCON you will now have only one gun and maybe one or two backups that have to be maintained in firing condition and have a crew that can properly do live fire with it - that takes more than an afternoon (but less than a week) - plus you need to keep 105mm ammo in the inventory somewhere. That's a pimple. The army hates "wasting" resources on pimples.

I will argue that any gun plumber that can maintain a Leopard tank or a M777, can maintain a C3 if the they have the parts, tools and instruction manual. We make things harder than they need to be. I have seen a fully disassembled C2 (Thank you 202 workshop, for leaving machining swaths in the recoil system) It is a bloody simple system. Civilian car mechanics have to face working on vehicles they are unfamiliar with, everyday and they mostly manage to cope.

 

[FJAG]

I will argue that any gun plumber that can maintain a Leopard tank or a M777, can maintain a C3 if the they have the parts, tools and instruction manual. We make things harder than they need to be. I have seen a fully disassembled C2 (Thank you 202 workshop, for leaving machining swaths in the recoil system) It is a bloody simple system. Civilian car mechanics have to face working on vehicles they are unfamiliar with, everyday and they mostly manage to cope.

Parts are an issue since the C3 conversion because of IP complications resulting from the bankruptcy of the Dutch company that did the conversions. This includes the recoil system. You are right - it's a basically simple system and anyone who can do M777s could grasp the skills in a few days. We've also hard some parts manufactured from scratch by RCN workshops. Pimple.

OTOH, I see a bright opportunity here for some former gunner in BC to form a small company to provide AVCON support duties for Parks Canada on an annual basis.