• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Infantry Vehicles

The tracked LAV was really just a model. It was like a concept car at an auto show. Most concept cars can not be driven and or not production ready.
More of design model to gage customer interest. If some one bit they would have said we will work on it. And here is the R&D bill for it. I doubt they even motored though any courses. But maybe they did.
They powered it by Hydraulics. might have its own merit. The solution is workable.
That being said I would think idea of sticking with GDLS Canada as a lead supplier has merit. But then you get into single bidder problem for politicians.
But that work is in Lower Canada there wont be much complaining.
Saw a piece yesterday abput Quebec politicians upset about the Senator from Rshel purchases for Ukraine and that there was no bidding done. So any industrial planning for Make in Canada in the end are useless.
They just need to put them in their place and ask if they can produce right away, if they have a factory ready to go. If not then keep quiet on the matter. They need to realize as the whole country prospers so do they. I mean not much real complaining about Quebec and all the other failed contracts they have gotten and the billions upon billions of dollars wasted. Cough cough bombardier. If they were smart they would be pushing to contract ammunition/ munitions production.
The NSS plan even got in trouble because of Davey. Plus I bet you see ton more bitching before the first CSC is started. And then even after the first batch again.
Only because the Fed tried to pull a fast one on them with the Astrix
Even with fire arms and Colt Canada as the center of excellence and made in Canada how that pistol replacement going? How long to replace the Lee Enfield for the Rangers? And that's just a bolt action rifle.
To many hands in the pot trying to line their pockets
Military and industrial policy in this country are never going to work.
It can and would. It needs the clutches of Lower Canada to let loose and act, think and work outside of their world.
Look even the government daring Bombardier before it imploded was told to not invest in Military products. Or they would not receive the grants and loans for the different planes they designed and built. And for most part they did not. Sold the missile business right after they purchased it. Did not really go after Military work. Had the infamous CF18 MRO contract and the pilot training but also sold them.
 
Child54 I believe your heart is right place but I can't see any made in Canada working in the long run but for a few cases. I do believe we need to support London etc.

The only Canada made stuff the army used was stuff like a product from Italy assembled in BC and hated by everyone. Or a jeep type from Germany assembled by the Quebec favorite company. In all cases way over charged and the plants did not last.

But let's take even BRP as Canadian as it comes. CSOR ordered Polaris because BRP can't even be bothered to even bash together a mil spec unit.

When putting together your Made in Canada ideas think first a government and gov leaders willing to see it come together. A plan to make it long lasting and world class then industry and companies willing to invest and see it though. Most Canadian defence companies selling in Canada are just middle men for the international products they are selling, JV or pass though for Canadian content.

Then there defence component and sub system supplier these are most casses world class and sell to global OEMs. In this area we have down and should grow this.
The next are global defence companies GDLS-Canada, Lockheed system etc. These companies do have some global products the LAVs the CS330 system etc. And there are some smaller niche players too. The company building RAS systems. Bristol, etc.
Then lastly are the MRO service and training business.

I don't see how to get a real made in Canada plan. Sure we will assemble something from time to time. But a real business would take the IP and the capital and thw will of home grown products. I don't see it.
 
They powered it by Hydraulics. might have its own merit. The solution is workable.

But that work is in Lower Canada there wont be much complaining.

They just need to put them in their place and ask if they can produce right away, if they have a factory ready to go. If not then keep quiet on the matter. They need to realize as the whole country prospers so do they. I mean not much real complaining about Quebec and all the other failed contracts they have gotten and the billions upon billions of dollars wasted. Cough cough bombardier. If they were smart they would be pushing to contract ammunition/ munitions production.

Only because the Fed tried to pull a fast one on them with the Astrix

To many hands in the pot trying to line their pockets

It can and would. It needs the clutches of Lower Canada to let loose and act, think and work outside of their world.
Look at my little Johnny, he’s the only one in step…
 
I guess the biggest factor of not building in Canada is a lack of want and will, lots of excuses and little need to. Many on this site follow those sentiments.
Excuse 1, We do not make enough of them to justify running a line.
Excuse 2, We do not have the skills
Excuse 3, no one will buy our product built here
Excuse 4, it will have to be heavily subsidized
Excuse 5, we do not have the facilities.
to mention a few.
Yet GDLS Canada Built the LAV series here, is it a 100% Canadian Company, nope but neither is BAE an American Company but they both work internationally building equipment with and for our Allies. They work in sectors providing expertise building military and non military stuff around the world to the those paying their bills.
Isn't it Funny Poland has around the same population and has recently fired up a few more manufactures then it had in the past from various companies and countries.
I do find it interesting that some commenting on here appear to be in the higher levels of the CF. In that I understand why things do not happen, or happen very slowly.

I remember when the LAVS appeared, many said no way are they going to make those here in Canada, no way will others buy them. Guess what build a good product and sales will follow.
Sometimes thinking outside the box gets things done. Why would anyone do that it might mean change, we are all scared of change.

Time will tell if Canada builds anything themselves, buys a relic of the Cold War or advances to a new level of two feet and heart beat.
 
I guess the biggest factor of not building in Canada is a lack of want and will, lots of excuses and little need to. Many on this site follow those sentiments.
Excuse 1, We do not make enough of them to justify running a line.
Excuse 2, We do not have the skills
Excuse 3, no one will buy our product built here
Excuse 4, it will have to be heavily subsidized
Excuse 5, we do not have the facilities.
to mention a few.
Yet GDLS Canada Built the LAV series here, is it a 100% Canadian Company, nope but neither is BAE an American Company but they both work internationally building equipment with and for our Allies. They work in sectors providing expertise building military and non military stuff around the world to the those paying their bills.
Isn't it Funny Poland has around the same population and has recently fired up a few more manufactures then it had in the past from various companies and countries.
I do find it interesting that some commenting on here appear to be in the higher levels of the CF. In that I understand why things do not happen, or happen very slowly.

I remember when the LAVS appeared, many said no way are they going to make those here in Canada, no way will others buy them. Guess what build a good product and sales will follow.
Sometimes thinking outside the box gets things done. Why would anyone do that it might mean change, we are all scared of change.

Time will tell if Canada builds anything themselves, buys a relic of the Cold War or advances to a new level of two feet and heart beat.
I would say some of those are very cold hard realty and can not change even with will and want. The LAV thing worked because of the Striker. If not the plant would have be gone just like it's other business GM diesel trains in the same facility at one point.

Here is one idea for you that could very much work industrial wise. Political this idea would never but go with me. If the Bell V280 gets though the GAO protest. Canada should sign up at level 1 Co developer of the platform. Bell has a big footprint Canada. We would get a large part the manufacturing subsystem. And as a bonus maybe we spring for a FACO at Bell for the ones we buy and say any foreign order from Commonwealth or something.
Politically you get into the problem of no bid competition. This is a show stopper. It was the problem with the F35. (I had always wished they just said they did have competition it was XF32 v XF35 so it's was done)

Oh I have many ideas that could work in an industrial sense it's the political side that is more than 50 percent of the problem

One more get BRP to rig up something for the G Wagon replacement.

Or get GM defence to do something in Oshawa. Something bigger strong than the ISV but not as big as the JTLV based on the big pickup built in Canada then make it world production center for that.

Here's the one I would have done years ago before Bombardier imploded. Design the CS series as a direct competitor to the P8. But have the competition in the bidding for the system side. NG, Raytheon and Lockheed would all jumped at the chance. Make the winner the major prime have then have them push plane tk other around the world. Too late now. Also an AWACS too like the wedgetails.

Or if the V280 is not your thing pay Bell to militarize the 525. Develop for replacement of the 412 in Canada and the EH101, S92, and NH90. That I would do right now. But that would some will and political daring.

All the things above have some chance at volume and international sales.

Tube artillery never
Tanks never
Fighter jets, Cargo planes nope. Don't touch subs....shutter.

One last point the CDN government can't even bring themselves to buy a replacement for the 3 Twin Otters so they just going to upgrade 50 year old airframes. They could have just bought new ones from Viking/DHC before the line was stopped. Not one person would have said boo...
 
Piece I was talking about

The government can run a test of them, they can all submit 5 vehicles and they can be run though series of tests. Then they can have their factory assessed for how many units they can deliver a month.
 
I guess the biggest factor of not building in Canada is a lack of want and will, lots of excuses and little need to. Many on this site follow those sentiments.
Excuse 1, We do not make enough of them to justify running a line.


Excuse 2, We do not have the skills
Excuse 3, no one will buy our product built here
Excuse 4, it will have to be heavily subsidized
Excuse 5, we do not have the facilities.
to mention a few.
Yet GDLS Canada Built the LAV series here, is it a 100% Canadian Company, nope but neither is BAE an American Company but they both work internationally building equipment with and for our Allies. They work in sectors providing expertise building military and non military stuff around the world to the those paying their bills.

BAE delivers to a dozen different countries. GDLS delivers to two.
Isn't it Funny Poland has around the same population and has recently fired up a few more manufactures then it had in the past from various companies and countries.
I do find it interesting that some commenting on here appear to be in the higher levels of the CF. In that I understand why things do not happen, or happen very slowly.

It’s not weird, it’s pretty clear. Poland has a military that’s around double our size. The average wage in Poland is lower than its EU counter parts, and they have free trade with them. So they have a larger market, and cheaper labour. They’ve been on a spending spree as they border Russia so they get a facility to build their new K9s.

I remember when the LAVS appeared, many said no way are they going to make those here in Canada, no way will others buy them. Guess what build a good product and sales will follow.
Sometimes thinking outside the box gets things done. Why would anyone do that it might mean change, we are all scared of change.

Outside the box is fine, buying in proven vehicles simply because they’re built in Canada isn’t outside the box it’s outside reality.

Time will tell if Canada builds anything themselves, buys a relic of the Cold War or advances to a new level of two feet and heart beat.
I don’t understand what you mean here.

They are interchangeable with the amount of work they both have, along with the amount of work they both talk themselves out of.

No their old names for two provinces; if you’re referring to an area as Upper or Lower Canada it’s a specific name.
 
I guess the biggest factor of not building in Canada is a lack of want and will, lots of excuses and little need to. Many on this site follow those sentiments.
Excuse 1, We do not make enough of them to justify running a line.
Excuse 2, We do not have the skills
Excuse 3, no one will buy our product built here
Excuse 4, it will have to be heavily subsidized
Excuse 5, we do not have the facilities.
to mention a few.
Yet GDLS Canada Built the LAV series here, is it a 100% Canadian Company, nope but neither is BAE an American Company but they both work internationally building equipment with and for our Allies. They work in sectors providing expertise building military and non military stuff around the world to the those paying their bills.
Isn't it Funny Poland has around the same population and has recently fired up a few more manufactures then it had in the past from various companies and countries.
I do find it interesting that some commenting on here appear to be in the higher levels of the CF. In that I understand why things do not happen, or happen very slowly.

I remember when the LAVS appeared, many said no way are they going to make those here in Canada, no way will others buy them. Guess what build a good product and sales will follow.
Sometimes thinking outside the box gets things done. Why would anyone do that it might mean change, we are all scared of change.

Time will tell if Canada builds anything themselves, buys a relic of the Cold War or advances to a new level of two feet and heart beat.

Simple answer. ZERO political will in Canada. Like none.
 
I guess the biggest factor of not building in Canada is a lack of want and will, lots of excuses and little need to. Many on this site follow those sentiments.
Excuse 1, We do not make enough of them to justify running a line.
Excuse 2, We do not have the skills
Excuse 3, no one will buy our product built here
Excuse 4, it will have to be heavily subsidized
Excuse 5, we do not have the facilities.
to mention a few.
Yet GDLS Canada Built the LAV series here, is it a 100% Canadian Company, nope but neither is BAE an American Company but they both work internationally building equipment with and for our Allies. They work in sectors providing expertise building military and non military stuff around the world to the those paying their bills.
Isn't it Funny Poland has around the same population and has recently fired up a few more manufactures then it had in the past from various companies and countries.
Poland also has a 180 degree different outlook on the Military.
They have a regular force double the size of the CAF
They have a geographic position that necessitates a strong Army, and a Government that knows that.

You mistake most of the comment here for a lack of wanting to do something one way, that a realism from years of watching the CAF rust, and retarded Political games that have provided subpar items to the CAF for political reasons, and the GoC screwing Cdn Industry repeatedly on Arms Sales.



I do find it interesting that some commenting on here appear to be in the higher levels of the CF. In that I understand why things do not happen, or happen very slowly.

I remember when the LAVS appeared, many said no way are they going to make those here in Canada, no way will others buy them. Guess what build a good product and sales will follow.
We have the AVGP's before the LAV, without the USMC LAV-25 acquisition the plan would have folded before the LAV III was a twinkle in anyones eye.
Sometimes thinking outside the box gets things done. Why would anyone do that it might mean change, we are all scared of change.

Time will tell if Canada builds anything themselves, buys a relic of the Cold War or advances to a new level of two feet and heart beat.
Sometimes some idiot just sets the box on a high shelf that no one can reach, and sells the ladder they used to put it up there...
 
Plus New Zealand, Colombia, Chile and Australia. Then add 12+ operators of the European version.
Fair point on New Zealand and Australia. The Chilean Marines bought surplus NZ LAVs so not really a “build this in Canada” purchase.
 
We have the AVGP's before the LAV, without the USMC LAV-25 acquisition the plan would have folded before the LAV III was a twinkle in anyones eye.
Even with it, we were a stones throw from a Thyssen-Henschel subsidiary completely supplanting the GM/GLDS

Ethical issues aside, I really wonder how different the Army would look today if Bear Head had happened and we had the 495 family with all it's variants in place going into Afghanistan
 
Last edited:
Poland also has a 180 degree different outlook on the Military.
They have a regular force double the size of the CAF
They have a geographic position that necessitates a strong Army, and a Government that knows that.
And a population close to the size of ours.
You mistake most of the comment here for a lack of wanting to do something one way, that a realism from years of watching the CAF rust, and retarded Political games that have provided subpar items to the CAF for political reasons, and the GoC screwing Cdn Industry repeatedly on Arms Sales.
The general thoughts here are what are placed through out the Military and Political spectrum. It should should change. But it does not. Think big get. Think small get small.
We have the AVGP's before the LAV, without the USMC LAV-25 acquisition the plan would have folded before the LAV III was a twinkle in anyones eye.
With out MOWAG none of the AVGPs or lAVS would have been built What's your point? You build a system and continue to improve that system. The AVGP/ LAV fleet is probably the largest success story of Canadian Defense industry production in my life time. It would be good to see them build upon their success.
Sometimes some idiot just sets the box on a high shelf that no one can reach, and sells the ladder they used to put it up there...
Hire a taller person, buy a new ladder, or get a electric lift. All can get the job done. Setting roadblocks in the way and saying it cant be done is silly at best. If the LAV series go to the way side for a tracked fleet then we will loose any foot hold we have in the Armored Defense industry.

I still remember watching when the LAVIIIs were being evaluated in FT Lewis. The Americans liked what they were watching. Heck I liked what I was seeing. They were tearing around the range in them 8 wheeled beasts. It was pretty good to see the Americans saying we want those.

Enough on this particular subject, when does the CV90 factory get built?

I would like to know how FMC a Chemical Company Designed the Bradley Fighting Vehicle. Must have been some outside the box thinking by their CEOS/ Designers at the time. Taking risks that paid off. Maybe in the near future a Canadian Oilfield company can design and build Canada's next Armored vehicle.
 
And a population close to the size of ours.

The general thoughts here are what are placed through out the Military and Political spectrum. It should should change. But it does not. Think big get. Think small get small.

With out MOWAG none of the AVGPs or lAVS would have been built What's your point? You build a system and continue to improve that system. The AVGP/ LAV fleet is probably the largest success story of Canadian Defense industry production in my life time. It would be good to see them build upon their success.

Hire a taller person, buy a new ladder, or get a electric lift. All can get the job done. Setting roadblocks in the way and saying it cant be done is silly at best. If the LAV series go to the way side for a tracked fleet then we will loose any foot hold we have in the Armored Defense industry.

I still remember watching when the LAVIIIs were being evaluated in FT Lewis. The Americans liked what they were watching. Heck I liked what I was seeing. They were tearing around the range in them 8 wheeled beasts. It was pretty good to see the Americans saying we want those.

Enough on this particular subject, when does the CV90 factory get built?

I would like to know how FMC a Chemical Company Designed the Bradley Fighting Vehicle. Must have been some outside the box thinking by their CEOS/ Designers at the time. Taking risks that paid off. Maybe in the near future a Canadian Oilfield company can design and build Canada's next Armored vehicle.
YOU need to take your viewpoints (many of us agree with alot of what you say) and re-direct it to
a. The general population; and
b. Parliament.

Without public and parliament support, all of this is nothing but "good ideas"
 
Listening to the Chieftain talking about the US preparing for war, the US military just prior to WWII gave small contracts at a premium to various supplier to let them learn how to build military equipment and to develop the abilty to mass produce it. The goal was not to get the equipment at the optimal price, but was to teach both industry and themselves how to contract, design and build the equipment.
 
Back
Top