Infantry Vehicles

[FJAG]

Given the ARNG can run Abram’s and Bradley’s it make zero sense that Canada’s Army Reserves couldn’t do the same.

Yes it would require real units, and support, and it appears that having multiple paper Divisions is more important to the CA than actually having a functioning combat capable force that is actually realistic in scope.

You know, the math isn't that hard. We have 5 paper divisions (and yes I'm counting 1 Div) 4 Reg F Bde gps and 10 Bde HQ. Redistribute those into 2 real division hq and 11 real bde HQs (lets say 2 armd, 2 mech, 2 lt, 2 arty, 1 Engr, 1 cbt sp, 1 sustainment or some variation) - 3 deployable and 16 non-deployable ones into 13 deployable ones. Both less and more! Win, win!

 

[Kirkhill]

How many Abrams, Bradleys and M109s are actually on National Guard books and how many are in storage?
How many National Guard units are ready tonight?
How much time is a National Guard unit given to be declared deployable?

 

[GK .Dundas]

How many Abrams, Bradleys and M109s are actually on National Guard books and how many are in storage?
How many National Guard units are ready tonight?
How much time is a National Guard unit given to be declared deployable?

I couldn't say for certain but I strongly suspect that a disturbing ( for us ) number of their brigade sized units are far more combatants ready then any of our reg force brigades.

 

[FJAG]

How many Abrams, Bradleys and M109s are actually on National Guard books and how many are in storage?

They have the same equipment TO&E for five armoured BCTs and two Stryker BCTs as the active army - that works out to 15 combined arms battalions and six Stryker battalions. There are 5 18-gun M109A6 battalions in the ABCT and two 18-gun M777 battalions in the SBCTs. There are an additional eight field artillery brigades with mixed battalions including 11 HIMARS battalions, 2 MLRS battalions, 8 M109A6 battalions and 8 M777 battalions with 18 launchers/guns per battalion.

They aren't in storage per se. If you look at air photos of their armories (yes I do it for research for my novels) you will see varying amounts (remember that IBCT infantry battalions have few vehicles beyond some in the HQ and weapons companies) The larger mech organizations usually have their equipment at National Guard training bases (pretty much every state has one) Equipment is older than some Active units but under Guard 4.0 units in their later cycles have priority for upgrades. As well, there are Active Guard-Reserve personnel and civilian staff assigned to equipment maintenance. I'm just taking a guess but the readiness standards probably exceed what Canada reported for the army recently.

How many National Guard units are ready tonight?

About 1/4 to 1/5th of them. Under Guard 4.0 ARNG organizations go through training cycles similar to our managed readiness program which runs over a four year period (the third year runs them through one of two NTC and two JRTC rotation allocated to the ARNG each year and gets them ready for a deployment to a theatre of operations such as to Germany/Poland for major NATO exercises. Guard 4.0 started in 2017/18 and most BCTs should have gone through a full cycle by now. Once a cycle is done it's repeated.

How much time is a National Guard unit given to be declared deployable?

It varies by the nature of the unit and is anywhere from 90 - 180 days. Guard 4.0 is a graduated readiness system spread over the four years and requires 39 days in year 1 (one weekend per months and two weeks summer); 39 to 48 days in year 2; 54 to 66 days in year three depending on the type of unit and includes NTC/JRTC; and 39 to 51 days in year 4. The first three years are "Prepare" years and the 4th year is considered the "Ready/Mission" year where the unit is ready to deploy and conducts additional training or deploys as required. Note that the days vary depending on type of BCT/units involved and in some cases on modifications to the program.

In the event that a unit needs to be activated, the time required in predeployment training is calculated from the number of days already taken during the current cycle - so for example a unit that has completed year three could be out the door immediately. A unit only two years into the cycle would need some 54 to 66 days including an NTC/JRTC rotation.

Take note that this comes from research and not practical experience. Some of the data may be a bit dated as this program is relatively new and is being adjusted.

 

[KevinB]

How many Abrams, Bradleys and M109s are actually on National Guard books and how many are in storage?

All are in operational condition. Generally stored in what most Reg Force units would have their LAV etc stored like.

Excess stuff is long term stored - not unit equipment.

How many National Guard units are ready tonight?
How much time is a National Guard unit given to be declared deployable?

Depends what you meant ready.

Generally most can be ready to board transport inside a week, two at the max.

 

[KevinB]

Part of me believes that there needs to be two types of infantry.

Heavy Infantry- who are part of a Heavy Tracked IFV

Light Infantry- who are generally vehicle agnostic.

You can then move and support Light Infantry forces with various levels of mobility systems.
Airborne
Airmobile
Arctic Mobility (BsV-10 etc)
Protected Mobility (Stryker type LAV)

In those cases the mobility comes from outside their own unit.

Which would require the formation of Mobility units to be attached as needed.

Yes that would also affect other arms and their needs.

 

[Kirkhill]

Part of me believes that there needs to be two types of infantry.

Heavy Infantry- who are part of a Heavy Tracked IFV

Light Infantry- who are generally vehicle agnostic.

You can then move and support Light Infantry forces with various levels of mobility systems.
Airborne
Airmobile
Arctic Mobility (BsV-10 etc)
Protected Mobility (Stryker type LAV)

In those cases the mobility comes from outside their own unit.

Which would require the formation of Mobility units to be attached as needed.

Yes that would also affect other arms and their needs.

The bit on the Stryker is the bit I keep tripping over when I compare the Stryker to the LAV.

The Stryker Platoon explicitly adds a vehicle section to each platoon. The Stryker Platoon is a regular light infantry platoon of 3 squads of 9 men plus a Platoon HQ plus a Platoon Weapons section.

The four vehicles have their own driver and commander that are in addition to the strength of the rifle platoon.



Swap the MGS Platoon for a C-UAS platoon with SkyRangers? Add UAVs throughout?

The same thinking would apply if the Strykers were swapped for the BVS-10 one for one. Separate the vehicles and crews from the Rifles.

 

[Kirkhill]

PS - if the Stryker Company were required to trade their Strykers for ISVs then the 8 drivers and commanders in the could swap their 4 Strykers for 8 ISVs and @KevinB would have the platoon lift he was looking for.

 

[GR66]

The Swedes split their sections into vehicle crews and dismount groups with a separate position of "Dismount Commander" (Sgt) to lead the dismounted elements if neither the Platoon Commander or Deputy Platoon Commander dismount. Now to be clear these are Armoured Infantry Platoons in Battalions with 2 x Tank Companies and 2 x Infantry Companies each so there is limited expectation for extensive dismounted operations. They are expected for the most part to remain mounted and accompany the tanks.

 

[KevinB]

Asymmetrical forces are more expensive - but you end up with what you need for a specific purpose, rather than several formations of something that sucks for a lot of things.

I’d missed this article before

Heavy IFV on Tank Chassis: Forgotten Concept Revived by Ukrainian-russian War | Defense Express

Precisely speaking, these vehicles are not IFVs but armored personnel carriers with tank chassis for a safe "pounce" with soldiers on board, and the appearance of such machinery in the ranks of Ukrainian forces shows that the understanding of its value comes only with real combat experience

en.defence-ua.com

 

[markppcli]

The bit on the Stryker is the bit I keep tripping over when I compare the Stryker to the LAV.

The Stryker Platoon explicitly adds a vehicle section to each platoon. The Stryker Platoon is a regular light infantry platoon of 3 squads of 9 men plus a Platoon HQ plus a Platoon Weapons section.

The four vehicles have their own driver and commander that are in addition to the strength of the rifle platoon.

View attachment 84858

Swap the MGS Platoon for a C-UAS platoon with SkyRangers? Add UAVs throughout?

The same thinking would apply if the Strykers were swapped for the BVS-10 one for one. Separate the vehicles and crews from the Rifles.

I wonder how much those strykers really are seperate from the squads. My understanding is that they belong to the PSgt, who’s responsible for the crews and does both the jobs done by our Pl 2 IC and LAV Sgt.The US army does this across Styker and Bradley units. Which results in the musical chairs load plan for a Bradley platoon where squads of 9 are split across 4 Bradley’s carry 6 each. I’m curious how that actually pans out on the ex, or if they have enough manning issues that they can just mount squads in each vehicle.

 

[Kirkhill]

I wonder how much those strykers really are seperate from the squads. My understanding is that they belong to the PSgt, who’s responsible for the crews and does both the jobs done by our Pl 2 IC and LAV Sgt.The US army does this across Styker and Bradley units. Which results in the musical chairs load plan for a Bradley platoon where squads of 9 are split across 4 Bradley’s carry 6 each. I’m curious how that actually pans out on the ex, or if they have enough manning issues that they can just mount squads in each vehicle.

I can see things being different in the field when the crews and the platoons merge.

On the other hand, from an administrative standpoint it seems reasonable to me that there is a firm backbone of 9 rifle platoons, similar across the Stryker, Light, Airborne and Air Assault units, to which a "transport" element can be attached.

Conventionally we had a Transport Platoon integral to a Rifle Battalion.
In the Stryker Battalion case each Rifle Platoon of 39 has an attached transport Squad of 8.
That suggests to me that the Stryker Battalion actually has a Transport Company on its books (9 Sections of 8 = 72 crew and 36 vehicles + various company vehicles and odds and sods like ambulances and FSTs).
But - take away the Strykers and their crews and the Brigade Commander still has a full Light Infantry Battalion that could be chopped to different transport.

 

[ArmyRick]

I can see things being different in the field when the crews and the platoons merge.

On the other hand, from an administrative standpoint it seems reasonable to me that there is a firm backbone of 9 rifle platoons, similar across the Stryker, Light, Airborne and Air Assault units, to which a "transport" element can be attached.

Conventionally we had a Transport Platoon integral to a Rifle Battalion.
In the Stryker Battalion case each Rifle Platoon of 39 has an attached transport Squad of 8.
That suggests to me that the Stryker Battalion actually has a Transport Company on its books (9 Sections of 8 = 72 crew and 36 vehicles + various company vehicles and odds and sods like ambulances and FSTs).
But - take away the Strykers and their crews and the Brigade Commander still has a full Light Infantry Battalion that could be chopped to different transport.

Not really. A transport platoon/troop is a battalion/regiment asset and typically used for administrative moves, usually equipment in a vehicle equipped unit. Strykers, bradleys, LAVs, etc (pending which army) belong to the platoon commander. He controls them, decides how to use them. He doesn't have to beg for them from higher.
The US Army pick up ISV as far I understand provides purely a logistical feature moving troops, no intention of using them in any tactical role.

Basically there are units with organic vehicles and units without.

Last I trained with the Marines down south, ALL of their infantry were basically light except some humvees in weapons platoons. They hitched a ride with helos, amtracks, LCU, LCAC, whatever they had or needed for the mission.

 

[markppcli]

I can see things being different in the field when the crews and the platoons merge.

On the other hand, from an administrative standpoint it seems reasonable to me that there is a firm backbone of 9 rifle platoons, similar across the Stryker, Light, Airborne and Air Assault units, to which a "transport" element can be attached.

Conventionally we had a Transport Platoon integral to a Rifle Battalion.
In the Stryker Battalion case each Rifle Platoon of 39 has an attached transport Squad of 8.
That suggests to me that the Stryker Battalion actually has a Transport Company on its books (9 Sections of 8 = 72 crew and 36 vehicles + various company vehicles and odds and sods like ambulances and FSTs).
But - take away the Strykers and their crews and the Brigade Commander still has a full Light Infantry Battalion that could be chopped to different transport.

The crews and platoon don’t merge, they’re already organic.

 

[KevinB]

I wonder how much those strykers really are seperate from the squads. My understanding is that they belong to the PSgt, who’s responsible for the crews and does both the jobs done by our Pl 2 IC and LAV Sgt.The US army does this across Styker and Bradley units. Which results in the musical chairs load plan for a Bradley platoon where squads of 9 are split across 4 Bradley’s carry 6 each. I’m curious how that actually pans out on the ex, or if they have enough manning issues that they can just mount squads in each vehicle.

It looks like a colossal shit show. Combat loaded not everyone fits now too

I was with a Bradley company under fire once in Iraq. I gave up trying to figure out the dismount method, as I wasn’t part of them, and we just did our own thing. While I also had their company net, I ended up turning down to next to off, as it was just a distraction from the task at hand.


There is a reason they went to 6 and 8 Bradley / platoon for trial.

 

[markppcli]

It looks like a colossal shit show. Combat loaded not everyone fits now too

I was with a Bradley company under fire once in Iraq. I gave up trying to figure out the dismount method, as I wasn’t part of them, and we just did our own thing. While I also had their company net, I ended up turning down to next to off, as it was just a distraction from the task at hand.


There is a reason they went to 6 and 8 Bradley / platoon for trial.

I would imagine its a bit like have receivers in motion lol

 

[KevinB]

I can see things being different in the field when the crews and the platoons merge.

On the other hand, from an administrative standpoint it seems reasonable to me that there is a firm backbone of 9 rifle platoons, similar across the Stryker, Light, Airborne and Air Assault units, to which a "transport" element can be attached.

Conventionally we had a Transport Platoon integral to a Rifle Battalion.
In the Stryker Battalion case each Rifle Platoon of 39 has an attached transport Squad of 8.
That suggests to me that the Stryker Battalion actually has a Transport Company on its books (9 Sections of 8 = 72 crew and 36 vehicles + various company vehicles and odds and sods like ambulances and FSTs).
But - take away the Strykers and their crews and the Brigade Commander still has a full Light Infantry Battalion that could be chopped to different transport.

The Strykers belong to the Company, and somewhat theoretically the Platoon, but they aren’t part of the Platoon as a fighting element (if that makes sense).

There are now also effectively 2 types of Stryker Brigades, that have two different roles.
Stryker Brigades in a Light Division, and Stryker Brigades in an Armored Division.
So there is different employment for them depending on who they are with.

 

[Kirkhill]

Asymmetrical forces are more expensive - but you end up with what you need for a specific purpose, rather than several formations of something that sucks for a lot of things.

I’d missed this article before

Heavy IFV on Tank Chassis: Forgotten Concept Revived by Ukrainian-russian War | Defense Express

Precisely speaking, these vehicles are not IFVs but armored personnel carriers with tank chassis for a safe "pounce" with soldiers on board, and the appearance of such machinery in the ranks of Ukrainian forces shows that the understanding of its value comes only with real combat experience

en.defence-ua.com

I note the bit about the armament. I support not over-gunning the platform and just giving the vehicle what it needs for self-defence. Given that I am liking the XM914 30x113 guns. They fit in an M2/Mk19 mount with similar weight and recoil forces and they have similar target sets but the 30x113 seems to be a better C-UAS weapon because of its bursting charge.

I believe the suite of ammunition now includes an HEDP, APHEI and a Programmable Proximity fused airburst round.

 

[Kirkhill]

Not really. A transport platoon/troop is a battalion/regiment asset and typically used for administrative moves, usually equipment in a vehicle equipped unit. Strykers, bradleys, LAVs, etc (pending which army) belong to the platoon commander. He controls them, decides how to use them. He doesn't have to beg for them from higher.
The US Army pick up ISV as far I understand provides purely a logistical feature moving troops, no intention of using them in any tactical role.

Basically there are units with organic vehicles and units without.

Last I trained with the Marines down south, ALL of their infantry were basically light except some humvees in weapons platoons. They hitched a ride with helos, amtracks, LCU, LCAC, whatever they had or needed for the mission.

The crews and platoon don’t merge, they’re already organic.

The Strykers belong to the Company, and somewhat theoretically the Platoon, but they aren’t part of the Platoon as a fighting element (if that makes sense).

There are now also effectively 2 types of Stryker Brigades, that have two different roles.
Stryker Brigades in a Light Division, and Stryker Brigades in an Armored Division.
So there is different employment for them depending on who they are with.

So I got two or three different responses here as to who owns what and what they are supposed to do. And I reckon that that is par for the course. Situations matter.

Having said that let me step back from the coal face and look at this issue from the standpoint of the accountants and those trying to manage readiness.

There is F Echelon, A Echelon and B Echelon (or used to was).

F Echelon meets the enemy on their feet. A and B Echelons get F Echelon to the fight.

It seems to me that how close the drop off is depends on how aggressive the commander is when confronted with a particular situation. Kind of like that old Advance to Contact drill and waiting for the commander to decide if the enemy fire was effective enough to halt the advance and react to the enemy fire.

I have observed troops charging onto the objective in unarmoured vehicles successfully because the situation permitted it. I have also observed heavily armoured vehicles stopped short of the objective because the situation didn't permit it.

....

A rifle battalion on a road move is likely to be carried by the transport platoon absent any other transport. On the other hand a rifle battalion conducting daily patrols will be using vehicles daily. My Dad's Battalion was notorious for securing local transport in Palestine. His 1st (Guards) Parachute Battalion should have been renamed the 1st (Guards) Motorized Parachute Battalion. Every section was mounted as were the battalion mortars (if the springs broke a new vehicle was "found").

...

The difference between a Light Battalion and a Mech Battalion is obvious as is their associations with the vehicles. Vehicles support the Light Battalion. The Mech Battalion rifles support the vehicles. Our LAVs serve in Mech Battalions.

....

The Stryker, although automotively similar to the LAV is referred to as a Carrier (Infantry Carrier Vehicle) and not a Fighter (Infantry Fighting Vehicle). It is an armoured bus.

The Stryker Battalion can drive to the foot of the mountain and then debus a complete Light Battalion, including MGs, ATGMs, Mortars and other odds and sods and fight up the mountains leaving their vehicles behind.

The same battalion, in my opinion, could be tasked, by the accountants and managers, to leave their Strykers back home in garrison and be sent into some nice warm swamps.

...

So I stand by my point.

In the Stryker Battalion the basic element is the standard light infantry platoon.

Each Battalion is authorized enough Strykers and Crews to lift and support 9 light infantry platoons and a recce platoon.

Scale of authorization is 4 vehicles with 8 commanders and drivers for each platoon.
Each Company gets 3 sections of 4 vehicles with 8 commanders and drivers for its 3 platoons along with an allocation of DFS vehicles, CPs, FSTs, Ambulances and Mortars.
All of those come from the kit on the CO's charge.

It is up to the CO to decide if he wants to use them like buses or wants to use them like Bradleys.

 

[GR66]

The difference between a Light Battalion and a Mech Battalion is obvious as is their associations with the vehicles. Vehicles support the Light Battalion. The Mech Battalion rifles support the vehicles. Our LAVs serve in Mech Battalions.

....

The Stryker, although automotively similar to the LAV is referred to as a Carrier (Infantry Carrier Vehicle) and not a Fighter (Infantry Fighting Vehicle). It is an armoured bus.

Technically the LAV 6.0 used in the "Mech" Battalions is the LAV ISC (Infantry Squad Carrier)...it's not named as an IFV.